Legal advice

wilko193

Ok so here goes the story of what happened:

I approached a pelican crossing from a cycle lane and as I approached I had the green man, and could see that the actual traffic lights were red, and there were two lines of stationary traffic. As I was just about to come onto the crossing, the green man started flashing. I continued across the crossing, and the driver in the second of two lanes pulled out, and i rode into the side of the car. The guy stopped, and so did a driver in the other queue of traffic.

Both were adamant that it was not the guys fault, and it was all my fault.

Damage to my Boardman FS Pro that I was riding back from a service is catastrophic. Snapped the frame almost clean in two on the seat tube, and where the top of the frame bent over, the top tube has twisted around. The front wheel pringled and the rear wheel is beyond repair.

I have the gents details and I have been to both walk in centre and GP with regards to my injuries (foot, back, neck and collar bone pain), but x0rays came up ok (thankfully).

Any CONSTRUCTIVE advice or opinions would be much appreciated.

Sam

djrock

So you were using the crossing? Did you cycle or walk across it? If you cycled you shouldn't have! But that does not excuse the driver from pulling away with out fully checking the crossing was clear.

In my opinion its the drivers fault. Just because the amber light is flash and changes to green doesn't mean drive on without checking. :roll:

Hope you get well soon!

wilko193

I was cycling.....

The light went red>amber flash and he went, not amber flash>green.....

djrock

wilko193 wrote:

I was cycling.....

The light went red>amber flash and he went, not amber flash>green.....

Well if the amber light was flashing then he should have been more cautious pulling away! Hopefully you cycling across doesn't make things difficult.

jeremyrundle

When the light is solid green you can cross but like traffic lights when the man flashes unless you are ON the crossing you should NOT start to cross, cars would assume that they can go if they see no one.

Why were you cycling on a PEDESTRIAN crossing.

http://www.roadsafetyni.gov.uk/index/ed ... es-pc1.htm

You were in the wrong, I would not be looking for a cyclist coming over a crossing from my left, only a pedestrian, and with the light flashing not even a pedestrian as they should not start to cross, , personally in case you are sued I would seek legal advice.

wilko193

Because it was cycle lane > cycle lane either side of the pedestrian crossing.....

jeremyrundle

wilko193 wrote:

Because it was cycle lane > cycle lane either side of the pedestrian crossing.....

Makes NO difference the cycle lane does NOT continue onto and over the crossing.

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

As this page states they are there "with sound" to help DEAF BLIND people, who do NOT expect a cyclist, if you were blind would you like a cyclist on a crossing, ANY crossing.

It is not illegal to cycle across a Zebra crossing if there is shared-use to either side, but it is contrary to Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings.

Breach of the highway code could be used as evidence of an offence, eg cycling dangerously, or of evidence of negligence in the event of a collision.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... ssings.pdf

The same applies to all crossings Google it. As the Father of three disabled sons I have stopped cyclists who use crossings, whatever their attitude to me.

spen666

jeremyrundle wrote:

wilko193 wrote:

Because it was cycle lane > cycle lane either side of the pedestrian crossing.....

Makes NO difference the cycle lane does NOT continue onto and over the crossing.

http://www.2pass.co.uk/crossing.htm

As this page states they are there "with sound" to help DEAF BLIND people, who do NOT expect a cyclist, if you were blind would you like a cyclist on a crossing, ANY crossing.

It is not illegal to cycle across a Zebra crossing if there is shared-use to either side, but it is contrary to Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... ssings.pdf


The same applies to all crossings Google it. As the Father of three disabled sons I have stopped cyclists who use crossings, whatever their attitude to me.

Upon what basis are you seeking to stop cyclists carrying out a lawful activity- namely cycling across a zebra crossing.

As you have highlighted, it is not illegal to cycle across a zebra crossing.

The Highway code is not the law.

The Rookie

Neither the law nor the HC put any bar on civil proceedings, if he went on flashing amber when he shouldn't without checking the way was clear, he was negligent and at fault, whether the OP should have been cycling across the zebra or not....if the judge decided he shouldn't have been their on a bike it would NORMALLY only then affect the size of a claim.

I suggest the OP claims from the driver (his insurance in effect) who are likely take a more pragmatic approach.

Simon

PBo

was it a pelican or toucan? Not sure what difference it makes in law, but obv. if toucan, than the driver should have definitely been more aware of cyclists when looking to pull away.

Instinctively, i feel that there's enough grey here to mean that insurance companies might be silly about it.

By your own admission, green man was flashing before you started, so you were wrong. He had flashing amber, so needed to ensure it was clear, so could be said he was wrong - but (playing devils advocate) if i was the driver, I'd claim that I did look for peds/cyclists at cossing/pavement interface, and it was clear. But that you "shot out" of the cycle lane and across, as I was beginning to move...

It.may then all come down to witness statements as to speeds of two parties, how long lights had been flashing etc....

jeremyrundle

It is illegal tgo "cycle" on a crossing did you read the government website I linked to "DISMOUNT"

Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings. Breach of the highway code could be used as evidence of an offence, eg cycling dangerously, or of evidence of negligence in the event of a collision.

"Upon what basis are you seeking to stop cyclists carrying out a lawful activity- namely cycling across a zebra crossing".

Shared use, e.g a cycle path running over the road alongside a crossing are ok, TOUCAN, he said it was a Pelican completely different.

http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport ... rkings.htm

However it clearly states that any cyclist so doing must show caution and follow the rules, (a) pedestrians have right of way and (b) only where this layout is shown can it be done, and NOT when the light is FLASHING.

There is also the onus of "responsibility on the cyclist, hit a pedestrian even if it may be their fault and most will say you should have dismounted.

jeremyrundle

PBo wrote:

It.may then all come down to witness statements as to speeds of two parties, how long lights had been flashing etc....

And as another driver has already gone witness saying he was in the wrong, end of case.

wizzlebanger

Which direction were you travelling in the cycle lane?

I'm not sure I have the picture in my head yet....

1. Were you in the cycle lane travelling in the same direction as the car you hit.

2. Or were you heading towards the car you hit? (ie the the driver would see you approach)

In my head at the moment......

You on the left of traffic on the cycle lane with cars going in the same direction as you. Approached the crossing as the lights started to change and then hooked a right onto the crossing and into the side of the car that moved?

Monkeypump

Like wizzlebanger, I'm not sure I can picture exactly what happened.

However, my thoughts are:

1. You shouldn't be riding on a crossing
2. You hit the side of his car, which might suggest he moved off before you changed direction into his path
3. The damage to your bike sounds significant. What speed were you riding at? Was it beyond what might be considered reasonable considering you were approaching and then using a crossing?
4. An independent witness has already stated his belief that you were to blame. They might be right, they might be wrong, but it's not going to help your case if you try to claim from the drivers insurance.

jeremyrundle

I wouldn't worry about claiming from any driver, I would be more concerned about a claim for the damage to the car with a witness to back it up.

I have just had a 9" scratch done on my car paid for by the insurance, caused by a drunk pedestrian, £450 for a scratch.

And if the bike was fairly good and new what does it take to crack a frame riding into a car it is made for off road use so is tough, you were not doing 5mph, thank god you didn't hit a child.

graeme_s-2

jeremyrundle wrote:

You were in the wrong, I would not be looking for a cyclist coming over a crossing from my left, only a pedestrian, and with the light flashing not even a pedestrian as they should not start to cross.

You're right, it does sound like the cyclist was wrong in this case. However, when you're driving a car you should always be on the look out for cyclists, pedestrians and other drivers, especially at a crossing, regardless of what the lights are doing.

jeremyrundle

Graeme_S wrote:

jeremyrundle wrote:

You were iYou're right, it does sound like the cyclist was wrong in this case. However, when you're driving a car you should always be on the look out for cyclists, pedestrians and other drivers, especially at a crossing, regardless of what the lights are doing.

I could not agree more with you, 100% true, in the same way all the responsible cyclists look out for idiots stepping off the pavement, drivers should look out for us, and lorry drivers for peds, cyclists andf car drivers.

However I have always drummed into my sons (all have learning difficulties) that just because a crossing is there for you does NOT mean a motorist will stop at it, WAIT till ALL the cars stop, including the ones behind the car in front in case they hit it and push it into you.

As for us, cyclists, I always think "blind person, deaf, Downes Syndrome" etc, we may be ok what about thier cognative ability.


Somewhere in the forum someone complained about the "textured pavements bad for cyclists", they are not there for us, they are there for the BLIND.

graeme_s-2

Fair enough Jeremy, I think we agree on this. If you generally assume that every other road user is either homicidal or suicidal then you can't go far wrong.

It was just the way you worded your previous post implying that as a driver you would assume that once the lights went green you could forget about the risk of anybody starting to cross.

amaferanga

If it was a toucan crossing (lights for bikes as well as pedestrians) then I'd say the driver was in the wrong and perhaps the OP as well if it started flashing before he got to it such that he could/should have stopped.

If it was a pelican crossing then the OP was 100% in the wrong to be cycling across it (of course the driver should have looked, but he will probably say he looked for pedestrians only and didn't expect a bike to be using the crossing).

Simple as that as far as I can see.

spen666

jeremyrundle wrote:

It is illegal tgo "cycle" on a crossing did you read the government website I linked to "DISMOUNT"

Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings. Breach of the highway code could be used as evidence of an offence, eg cycling dangerously, or of evidence of negligence in the event of a collision.

"Upon what basis are you seeking to stop cyclists carrying out a lawful activity- namely cycling across a zebra crossing".

Shared use, e.g a cycle path running over the road alongside a crossing are ok, TOUCAN, he said it was a Pelican completely different.

http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport ... rkings.htm

However it clearly states that any cyclist so doing must show caution and follow the rules, (a) pedestrians have right of way and (b) only where this layout is shown can it be done, and NOT when the light is FLASHING.

There is also the onus of "responsibility on the cyclist, hit a pedestrian even if it may be their fault and most will say you should have dismounted.

Jeremy, you have avoided answering the question

You quote a link which clearly states

It is not illegal to cycle across a Zebra crossing if there is shared-use to either side, but it is contrary to Rule 64 of the Highway Code which states that cyclists should dismount and walk across Zebra crossings

If it is not illegal to cycle across the relevant criossing, then on what basis are you seeking to stop people carrying out a lawful activity.

As I stated Rule 64 of the highway code is NOT the law and gives you no right legal or moral to prevent lawful activity.

jeremyrundle

ZEBRA crossing being the operative words, I clearly stated he said Pellican, I thought I had covered this.

And if you follow the correct link non cycling also applies to zebra crossings, anyway what is the problem, law or not there is such a ting as COMMON SENSE.

jeremyrundle

As I stated Rule 64 of the highway code is NOT the law and gives you no right legal or moral to prevent lawful activity.

Well DUH anyway, perhaps according to you not the law,

http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/ ... cle12.html

"There are several in Cambridge, for example across Gonville Place near the swimming pool. Cyclists should not cycle across them, though they may wheel their bikes across."


Perhaps everyone except you is wrong, doubt it.

ALSO see what I said earlier about PARALELL CROSSINGS, where cyclists can cross.

Phate

Couple of things, if the car was stopped at a crossing then when you add reaction time, handbrake off and pulling away then you are looking at the lights flashing for at least 5 seconds?? This in my opinion is more than enough for the cyclist to have seen/heard the car and stopped before the crossing!! The fact he didn't stop and combined with the damage caused by hitting the car side on I would say that the cyclist was travelling way too fast for approaching a crossing of any kind and therfor in the wrong!!

cougie

wilko193 wrote:

Ok so here goes the story of what happened:



Damage to my Boardman FS Pro that I was riding back from a service is catastrophic. Snapped the frame almost clean in two on the seat tube, and where the top of the frame bent over, the top tube has twisted around. The front wheel pringled and the rear wheel is beyond repair.



Sam

Ouch.

OK - I can see that you'd buckle a front wheel. I'm stunned that you broke the frame though ? Thats a massive impact.
And what happened to the rear wheel to make that beyond repair ? What happened there ?

Ring Bikeline and see if they can help or not - but the story and the damage doesnt seem to add up to me - but I could be missing something.

Maybe a photo of the scene would help ?

wizzlebanger

If the amber light for the driver has started to flash then he can start moving off with caution. He has to wait for the crossing to clear.

If a pedestrian then runs out of nowhere into the side of his car then I doubt the driver can be held accountable.

From your description it sounds like you were cycling across the crossing to get to the other side of the road? From the damage to your bike it sounds like you were going at a fair whack so I expect you appeared out of nowhere to the driver.

My perspective is that you chalk it down to experience and be thankful you didn't permanently injure yourself.