No More Lethal Lorries - Petition

OldSkoolKona

LCC have a petition at the moment asking for all London Councils to have their lorry drivers under go cycle training.

Already four of the London Borough's provide this with positive results, LCC are lobbying for the remaining 29 borough's to follow their lead.

This is a quick win for improving the behaviour of many of the lorry drivers on the roads (e.g. bin lorries). Obviously other lorry operators need targeting (e.g. cement mixers) but this is a start.

http://www.no-more-lethal-lorries.org.u ... ?PageID=17

Agent57

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

W1

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

These events are very pooly advertised - I'd also like to attend one but they seem to occur at random and it's pot luck if you come accross one or not!

OldSkoolKona

Yup, works both ways. There are more and more of those events where they get a HGV to park up and let cyclists see it from the motorists perspective. This is pushing for lorry drivers to see it from the cyclists view point :-)

iPete

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

Same here, did some googling and tfl came up trumps with its exchanging places event...

Infact, there is one tonight up the road from me

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/15351.aspx

ndru

It's a good initiative of course. I am just wondering if the drivers really kill cyclists because they are untrained or perhaps they do not utilize the training and skills they already posses? If there is a problem perhaps it should be attacked by adding some mirrors to the trucks, maybe adding sensors. Of course cyclists should keep out of blind spots, but shouldn't it be a priority to eliminate as many blind spots as possible?

Blue Meanie

Yup,
I've sat in a truck cab, driven one too around an old work's carpark.
Have a full, clean driving licence (and a car - See, cyclists do pay road tax)
Been a Black Cab Driver.
Been a Cycle Courier.

It does help if you can 'see yourself as others see you'.

Tonymufc

ndru wrote:

It's a good initiative of course. I am just wondering if the drivers really kill cyclists because they are untrained or perhaps they do not utilize the training and skills they already posses? If there is a problem perhaps it should be attacked by adding some mirrors to the trucks, maybe adding sensors. Of course cyclists should keep out of blind spots, but shouldn't it be a priority to eliminate as many blind spots as possible?

There's six mirrors on my truck mate, and there are still blind spots. How many more mirrors would you like them to have. Why not put thirty mirrors on them. By the time the driver has checked them all it'll be time to check the first one again. Education is the key my friend. On both parts.

lardboy

Looks like a spot of mixed messaging going on. Let's have lovely cycle lanes exactly where cyclists shouldn't be if a lorry pulls up. Filter on the right; much safer all round.

spen666

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

jeremyrundle

OldSkoolKona wrote:

LCC have a petition at the moment asking for all London Councils to have their lorry drivers under go cycle training.

http://www.no-more-lethal-lorries.org.u ... ?PageID=17

Done and Done

roger_merriman

spen666 wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

indeed, if the vehicle has such massive blind spots then i'm struggling to see how it can be safe.

spen666

roger merriman wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

indeed, if the vehicle has such massive blind spots then i'm struggling to see how it can be safe.

Agreed

I also wonder how we allow the fact the driver couldn't see pedestrian/ cyclist because of blind spot to be a mitigation.

we would not allow it to be mitigation to say that you shot someone because the gun you are carrying had no safety catch and you knew it didn't

bigmat

Agreed. If lorries really have such MASSIVE blind spots, they either need to redesign them or get them off the roads. Hell, if I ploughed into a pedestrian because I had a "blind spot" in my car I wouldn't expect to get away with it. I acceptcyclists need to help themselves, but there is a basic issue of whether some of these vehicles have any right to be on the roads. At the very least, training standards for drivers need to be set higher and that standard of care to the puplic needs to be more rigorously enforced.

deptfordmarmoset

spen666 wrote:

Agent57 wrote:

It'd be great if more cyclists could at least sit in a cab and understand just how far in front they need to be for the driver to see them, and where the blind spots are. If it stops people riding up the inside of lorries, that's a good thing.

I sat in a truck cab earlier this year, and it was quite revealing. I'd assumed they could see more than I could when sat behind the wheel.

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

I agree entirely. It may be wise to advise people how to avoid a known danger but wiser still to tackle that known danger.

The Rookie

spen666 wrote:

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

Ok well I'll take away your fridge, freezer, bed, and your bike, none would be delivered without trucks.

Lorry drivers need to be aware of blind spots and how they can minimise the impact, I agree, but cyclists need to be aware of the same blind spots and not put themselves in them!

If I can't get right in fornt of a Lorry, then I saty behind, easy really!

Lots of vehicles (including bikes) on the road have blindspots simply as the nut holding the wheel doesn't look there anyway......

Simon

spen666

The Beginner wrote:

spen666 wrote:

It would be even better if we did not allow on our roads vehicles with blind spots that prevent them seeing other road users

Ok well I'll take away your fridge, freezer, bed, and your bike, none would be delivered without trucks.

Lorry drivers need to be aware of blind spots and how they can minimise the impact, I agree, but cyclists need to be aware of the same blind spots and not put themselves in them!

If I can't get right in fornt of a Lorry, then I saty behind, easy really!

Lots of vehicles (including bikes) on the road have blindspots simply as the nut holding the wheel doesn't look there anyway......

Simon

Simply saying blindspots exist is not acceptable.

We must redesign vehicles to eliminate such blindspots or if that is not possible we need to rethink freight distribution. How about more rail useage and then smaller vehicles from railheads. Cost more for delivery ? yes, but what price on a life

nottscobb

If you can invent a way for a truck not to have blind spots or find a way for goods to be delivered door to door without trucks then go for it, you will make millions. In the mean time it is about understanding that we have to share the roads with other traffic. Yes, as cyclists we are the most vulnerable so we feel everyone should make sure they don't hurt us but it is also our responsibility to look after ourselves. If that means not sitting on the left side of a truck in traffic I'm sure it doesn't ruin your day.

greg66_tri_v2.0

spen666 wrote:

We must redesign vehicles to eliminate such blindspots

Not sure we need to redesign the vehicles, as much as retro fit some fairly simple, readily available and cheap technology: parking sensors down the nearside of the lorry, together with a couple of cams linked to a screen in the cab. I think it's the current Range Rover that has something like 5 cams on it, all of which can stream split screen to the driver. How difficult would it be to retro fit that to artics? Not very, IMO.

bigmat

I'm pretty sure from previous threads that there are means available to limit the extent of blind spots but that in a lot of cases they don't hold up to the hauliers "cost benefit" analysis. That is pretty shocking. I'm not saying that we don't need lorries to distribute goods, I'm just saying that if the extent of blind spots is as bad as the likes of that TfL poster suggest, there is a fundamental safety issue that needs to be addressed.

As for cyclists taking responsibility, just how many of the cyclists in that poster might have been waiting at the lights before the lorry pulled up alongside? You can't always avoid being put in that situation and its not good enough for the driver to say "sorry your honour, I didn't see him" (SYHIDSH - not as catchy as SMIDSY is it?)

jeremyrundle

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/r ... 081596.stm

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

spen666 wrote:

We must redesign vehicles to eliminate such blindspots

Not sure we need to redesign the vehicles, as much as retro fit some fairly simple, readily available and cheap technology: parking sensors down the nearside of the lorry, together with a couple of cams linked to a screen in the cab. I think it's the current Range Rover that has something like 5 cams on it, all of which can stream split screen to the driver. How difficult would it be to retro fit that to artics? Not very, IMO.

Potentially not, no, but seriously pricey, and can you really expect drivers to constantly monitor a set of screens as well as the road and a set of mirrors while guiding a huge vehicle thorough small streets?

They're not HGV drivers because they fundamentally disagree with the collegiate system, are they?

jeremyrundle

NO road is dangerous, a road can't leap up and kill you only the driver, NO houses, town, streets, places are dirty just the people who make them so, therefore no vehicle is dangerous just the moron behind the wheel unless someone deliberately or foolishly walks, drives or cycles in front, however then perhaps the arguiment would be we should always be prepared for the unexpected.

PETITION SIGNED BY WHOLE FAMILY

OldSkoolKona

Folks, plenty of threads to discuss whether lorries need a redesign or whether cyclists need to be more aware.

If you think its a good thing that council lorry drivers get an appreciation of the cyclists perspective, sign the petition.

If you don't want council drivers getting that perspective, don't.

Simples

jamesco

Greg66 wrote:

Not sure we need to redesign the vehicles, as much as retro fit some fairly simple, readily available and cheap technology: parking sensors down the nearside of the lorry, together with a couple of cams linked to a screen in the cab. I think it's the current Range Rover that has something like 5 cams on it, all of which can stream split screen to the driver. How difficult would it be to retro fit that to artics? Not very, IMO.

Right on. Looking at what the Microsoft Kinect can do for £130, you'd think there's already the ability to create a proximity awareness system for trucks which identifies potential hazards (e.g. cyclists sneaking up the side that the truck is indicating for) and alerts the driver, without overloading the driver with info. Each pedestrian/cyclist death is supposed to cost millions directly & indirectly, right?

deptfordmarmoset

OldSkoolKona wrote:

Folks, plenty of threads to discuss whether lorries need a redesign or whether cyclists need to be more aware.

If you think its a good thing that council lorry drivers get an appreciation of the cyclists perspective, sign the petition.

If you don't want council drivers getting that perspective, don't.

Simples

OldSkool, personally I don't see it as an either/or question. I agree with both propositions: (lorry redesign, particularly in terms of sightlines and possible engineering solutions for rear axles to reduce or eliminate drag sweep); and better cyclist awareness - cyclists should be more aware of how little lorry drivers can see where they're dragging their rear axle, they should also be aware how little lorry drivers are legally obliged to see as they obliterate a stretch of road under their front nearside and along the lines of their rear axles' travel.

So I had no difficulty completing the petition.

It's very easy to only think about ''suicyclists'' when you see this image...



...but somewhere in the ''unconscious'' of that image lies another question. Should the lorry driver be allowed to proceed in the knowledge that continuing will take out a good handful of the cyclists hidden from the driver's view? And should a lorry driver be put in such a moral position - of knowing that he or she may kill but it's just collateral damage inflicted in the name of economics and progress?

OldSkoolKona

deptfordmarmoset, completely agreed, and both cyclist awareness and a rethink of lorry design (and lorry access) are all part of the solution.

I was just concerned that the original proposition, that it would be good to get lorry drivers to have cycle awareness was getting lost in the noise.

Anyway, petition signed

cee

lost_in_thought wrote:

Potentially not, no, but seriously pricey, and can you really expect drivers to constantly monitor a set of screens as well as the road and a set of mirrors while guiding a huge vehicle thorough small streets?

They're not HGV drivers because they fundamentally disagree with the collegiate system, are they?

Not that pricey when you consider the cost of an HGV!

A new scania HGV cab will cost about 150 grand. Thats the cab. The trailers are almost as exensive again.

putting a couple of grand on top in cameras is nothing in comparison

lardboy

I must fess up and say that the blue boxes on the poster were 'shopped in to illustrate the idiocy of most cycle lanes and London's CSH. We have cycle infrastructure that seems to instruct riders to go into death-traps, then we have to instruct drivers to look out for the people in the death traps, and tell the riders that they shouldn't be there. Perhaps if it was a little more thought through, we might avoid so many lorry/cyclist deaths.

jedster

I always think this argument that we should ban LGV's with blind spots from the roads is utterly, utterly ridiculous.

Almost every country in the world uses heavy truck designs that are broadly similar, including countries that are much more "pro-cycling" than Britain.

The cost to the economy of replacing big trucks with smaller trucks would be substantial (in efficiency terms). And you would need to set that against the relatively small number of cyclists killed in truck blind spots. It would be a huge cost per life saved.

Before anyone says "you can't put a price on a life", please grow up. That is exactly what we HAVE to do. If we spend resources on less efficent truck transport we will have less left for paying for healthcare, public transport, safe road design, all of which I am confident would deliver more bang for the buck in terms of lives saved.

There are lots of things in our lives that could be made safer but they have a cost. Just think we could:
reduce the urban speed limit to 10mph
we could put jubilee extenstion style platform barriers on all tube lines.

Personally I think we should continue to ask people to be take care when they drive, take care not to push people off crowded platforms and take care not to cycle up inside trucks.

Rant over.

J

W1

jedster wrote:

I always think this argument that we should ban LGV's with blind spots from the roads is utterly, utterly ridiculous.

Almost every country in the world uses heavy truck designs that are broadly similar, including countries that are much more "pro-cycling" than Britain.

The cost to the economy of replacing big trucks with smaller trucks would be substantial (in efficiency terms). And you would need to set that against the relatively small number of cyclists killed in truck blind spots. It would be a huge cost per life saved.

Before anyone says "you can't put a price on a life", please grow up. That is exactly what we HAVE to do. If we spend resources on less efficent truck transport we will have less left for paying for healthcare, public transport, safe road design, all of which I am confident would deliver more bang for the buck in terms of lives saved.

There are lots of things in our lives that could be made safer but they have a cost. Just think we could:
reduce the urban speed limit to 10mph
we could put jubilee extenstion style platform barriers on all tube lines.

Personally I think we should continue to ask people to be take care when they drive, take care not to push people off crowded platforms and take care not to cycle up inside trucks.

Rant over.

J

I tend to agree with you - there has to be a pragmatic, non-emotional analysis done.

However that picture above is very enlightening and should be much more widely advertised.