New bike build - which gruppo?

boz64
boz64 Posts: 81
edited November 2010 in Road buying advice
Hi all

I will be shortly be having a new bike built. I am just deciding what groupset to go for. I was originally gonna go for Sram Force. However, for an extra 140 quid I can get Sram Red incl ceramic BB!

Given that, apparently, there is little diifference between the two, should I spend the extra and get Red?

Please note - the choice is between these two Sram groupsets... not Shimano or Campag.

Cheers
Liverpool Mercury CC
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Comments

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    The ceramic BB is not far off 140 quid. Get the Red.
  • JesseD
    JesseD Posts: 1,961
    Campag :D
    Obsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    A quality groupset such as Campag of course, don't worry about that Sram rubbish.
  • rc856
    rc856 Posts: 1,144
    JesseD wrote:
    Campag :D

    +1
  • andy162
    andy162 Posts: 634
    edited November 2010
    I've used Red for the last 2 years & in the most part really liked it. My only gripe was the upshifts when you are really stamping on the pedals. Noisy, rough & then some. KMC chain improved matters tho.The BB's are crap too.

    Used "old" Force for a bit & it didn't have the 1:1 pull ratio's on the shifters so the differances in shifting was marked. Now Force has the 1:1(?) so I reckon it'd be harder to call. If you are happy to spend a bit more get Red, I reckon it looks better, it's lighter & you know it's the "best" SRAM do.

    Recently flogged the groupset & have jumped to 7900 which I'll be fitting next year.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I have Campagnolo, Shimano and Sram equipped bikes. Apart from the BB which I have replaced with a Token ceramic one, the Sram Red is my fave. Quick crisp shifting and better ergonomics IMO...
  • ScottieP
    ScottieP Posts: 599
    If Red is only £140 more than Force - I would choose Red too. When I've been looking at gruppo prices the difference has been more like £300-400 - so £140 is a cheap upgrade and then you know you have the best SRAM makes.
    My cycling blog: http://girodilento.com/
  • Scrumple
    Scrumple Posts: 2,665
    GET the RED

    Do it.

    No brainer.

    (I have both, both great, but red is the best!)
  • pliptrot
    pliptrot Posts: 582
    Ceramic bearings are of questionable advantage, but are wonderfully marketed and thus inordinately expensive. SRAM, more than perhaps Campag and Shimano, are masters of marketing. It's likely that their no.2 group is not appreciably different to Red, but is slightly less expensive - it's called positioning. If your ego can take it, pay as little as you can for decent kit. Force?
  • ScottieP
    ScottieP Posts: 599
    pliptrot wrote:
    Ceramic bearings are of questionable advantage, but are wonderfully marketed and thus inordinately expensive. SRAM, more than perhaps Campag and Shimano, are masters of marketing. It's likely that their no.2 group is not appreciably different to Red, but is slightly less expensive - it's called positioning. If your ego can take it, pay as little as you can for decent kit. Force?

    Great post!
    My cycling blog: http://girodilento.com/
  • pbt150
    pbt150 Posts: 316
    pliptrot wrote:
    Ceramic bearings are of questionable advantage, but are wonderfully marketed and thus inordinately expensive. SRAM, more than perhaps Campag and Shimano, are masters of marketing. It's likely that their no.2 group is not appreciably different to Red, but is slightly less expensive - it's called positioning. If your ego can take it, pay as little as you can for decent kit. Force?

    Have you considered Rival? It's also bl00dy good and even cheaper! SRAM are probably the company with the smallest distance between the top and bottom of their range.
  • ShutUpLegs
    ShutUpLegs Posts: 3,522
    pbt150 wrote:
    pliptrot wrote:
    Ceramic bearings are of questionable advantage, but are wonderfully marketed and thus inordinately expensive. SRAM, more than perhaps Campag and Shimano, are masters of marketing. It's likely that their no.2 group is not appreciably different to Red, but is slightly less expensive - it's called positioning. If your ego can take it, pay as little as you can for decent kit. Force?

    Have you considered Rival? It's also bl00dy good and even cheaper! SRAM are probably the company with the smallest distance between the top and bottom of their range.

    You are kidding right?
  • Scrumple
    Scrumple Posts: 2,665
    It's like some kids have just discovered the law of diminishing returns... There isn't a clear scvientific answer to this,

    Strip away all the blather above, and read the OP's question... is it worth £140 of his cash to get red over force?

    YES. The rear mech, chainset, and shifters are nicer. The cassette is lighter and racier (but like the front mech some prefer force here for durability in bad conditions).

    As for whether the name itself, and the bling is worth it, then that depends on who you are and what you think. For me it is. My force clad Sabbath now has red shifters and I'd have red everything else if I could. Force is superb, but that is not the issue here.

    Safe bet is you'll have a great gruppo whatever you choose.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,496
    i went for red on my new bike, mainly as i preferred the shape of the hoods, and the graphics/colours match my sram wheels

    imho aside from really low end stuff, most of us will find little practical performance difference between models/makes

    if you can afford it, treat yourself to red, and enjoy the bling
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • I'd say go RED, but then why wouldn't you? Bike pimp is the only way to go....

    p.s. I just swaped my SRAM for Campag. Best move I ever made.... :lol:
    jedster wrote:
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    FCN 3 or 4 on road depending on clothing
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  • geebee2
    geebee2 Posts: 248
    I went for Force 2010 @ £600, but the difference in price was much more than you are quoting - maybe you have very cheap Red?

    The force integrated shifters are a bit sloppy, I think the Red have an improved version (zero loss I think they call it or something like that).

    But compared to the downtube shifters I am used to, it's a dream anyway!

    Beware the BB instructions : I got two lots, one with the crankset and one with the BB.

    The BB instructions were different and nonsensical. The Crankset instructions show a ring non-drive side outside the cup assembly ( maybe it's just meant to be the shield ). When I used the ring supplied with the BB ( one of two ), it seemed too big, so was in contact with the cup and the crank, which seems wrong, so I just took it off. Everything seems good now ( after ~200 miles ).
  • Scrumple
    Scrumple Posts: 2,665
    both force and red 2010 have the zero loss - just weight difference.
  • geebee2
    geebee2 Posts: 248
    Scrumple wrote:
    both force and red 2010 have the zero loss - just weight difference.

    Force 2010 doesn't have zero loss on the right shifter:

    "Aside from a slightly lighter weight, standard ceramic bearings and Zero Loss right-hand shifter internals, there's little motivation to upgrade and diminishing returns based on cost"

    from

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... t-10-35791
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    geebee2 wrote:
    Scrumple wrote:
    both force and red 2010 have the zero loss - just weight difference.

    Force 2010 doesn't have zero loss on the right shifter:

    "Aside from a slightly lighter weight, standard ceramic bearings and Zero Loss right-hand shifter internals, there's little motivation to upgrade and diminishing returns based on cost"

    from

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... t-10-35791

    That's with a 400 quid price difference. At 140 quid it becomes a little less black and white.
  • Scrumple
    Scrumple Posts: 2,665
    jackon-cookie.jpg
  • richk
    richk Posts: 564
    sungod wrote:
    i..., mainly as i preferred the shape of the hoods, ...

    This is a big reason for my choice of gearing too...
    There is no secret ingredient...
  • As an engineer and scientist, I can tell you it will make no difference. I've spent the year testing out my two bikes on a standard route at the same HR. One is a carbon fibre campag chorus equipped bike, the other a Campag Veloce equipped winter trainer, which weighs quite a bit more. Guess which is the fastest? The Veloce equipped bike. By 1 second. Don't let the marketing people fool you. The main/only thing that matters is the fit of the bike, and how fit you are.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    As an engineer and scientist, I can tell you it will make no difference. I've spent the year testing out my two bikes on a standard route at the same HR. One is a carbon fibre campag chorus equipped bike, the other a Campag Veloce equipped winter trainer, which weighs quite a bit more. Guess which is the fastest? The Veloce equipped bike. By 1 second. Don't let the marketing people fool you. The main/only thing that matters is the fit of the bike, and how fit you are.

    For an engineer and scientist your testing protocol is rather flawed ;)
  • How? I've done enough repeats (about 30 on each bike) to plot out all the error bars/standard deviations. Can't go into too many details as it would take pages, but you have to back up your assertions instead of just saying its flawed. You have no idea of the methodology I've used.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    How? I've done enough repeats (about 30 on each bike) to plot out all the error bars/standard deviations. Can't go into too many details as it would take pages, but you have to back up your assertions instead of just saying its flawed. You have no idea of the methodology I've used.

    I was basing it on what you posted. I had no idea of the methodology used because on the face of it you rode your bikes with HR used as a constant (which is an unreliable constant) and looked at the time difference. I apologise for my assumption, my jibe was meant in jest, hence the winking smiley.

    There's more to choosing a group/bike than just going off speed though, it's the pleasure it gives whilst getting there that's most important to me.
  • rozzer32
    rozzer32 Posts: 3,825
    As an engineer and scientist, I can tell you it will make no difference. I've spent the year testing out my two bikes on a standard route at the same HR. One is a carbon fibre campag chorus equipped bike, the other a Campag Veloce equipped winter trainer, which weighs quite a bit more. Guess which is the fastest? The Veloce equipped bike. By 1 second. Don't let the marketing people fool you. The main/only thing that matters is the fit of the bike, and how fit you are.


    Is your route mostly uphill/flat/downhilll? If downhill then I'm in no way surprised and the extra weight helps going downhill. Going uphill will be where the biggest difference is made with the weight. Also I bet the chorus shifts a bit better than Veloce which is always useful.

    But then you ride Campag so you can't be taken seriously :lol:
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • Hi NapoleonD
    Thanks for the reply. I agree that HR is an unreliable indicator, but I'd tried to average that out by many repeats. I've fitted the data etc and was very disappointed to find out I'd spent so much money on a nominally better bike only for the stats to come out as they did. On one bike ive got Fulcrum Racing 1's and on the other Mavik Aksiums, so that added to my disappointment. Its a fairly hilly route I do the repeats on (20 miles round Derbyshire - no-where is flat there). THe Chorus group set do shift so much better than the Veloce's - but these are pretty good also. I don't have a power meter, but would like one.
  • rozzer32 its reasonably hilly, typical Derbyshire terrain. A circular route of 20 miles. Could well be that with the lighter bike/gear I might shave some time off if the route was more demanding.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,496
    RichK wrote:
    sungod wrote:
    i..., mainly as i preferred the shape of the hoods, ...

    This is a big reason for my choice of gearing too...

    glad to hear it, but as i suspect you don't get the point:

    a gear's a gear, no matter what brand

    the main differentiator between red, or dura ace, or super record, is ergonomics, otherwise they're all very good groupsets

    i despise thumb shifters, that leaves sram and shimano, i prefer the action/feel of sram

    presumably you'd choose something that you don't like the feel of
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny