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Selfish barstewards!

IcarusGreenIcarusGreen Posts: 531
edited November 2010 in The Crudcatcher
http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx ... =155089591

Firemen of London:

Why not spare a thought for the poor feckin' squaddies that will not get a pay rise for 2 years and will have to do YOUR JOB while you go on strike this Bonfire night......I'm sure that you'd be jumping at the chance for a week in Afghanistan if we were to go on strike!

Why did they take the job in the first place.... you signed the dotted line! We should send them to afghan, at least they'd have something to cry about!

The firefighters of this country need to be thankful they have a job instead of moaning that their shifts might change a bit! Don't you think there are plenty of squaddies out there that would love to go on strike because they get a little censored off with being shot at, but no they carry on regardless BECAUSE IT'S THEIR JOB, JUST LIKE WORKING BONFIRE NIGHT IS A FIREFIGHTERS JOB!!!!!!!

These are comments from many of my friends and I feel the same. They need a reality check. Fire all the fcukers and offer their jobs to other counties firefighters who are having cuts (unless their going on strike as well).
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  • im not saying i agree with the firemen, or the above post, im well and truely sitting on the fence on this one

    however in the interests of presenting a balanced argument, it should be noted that whilst the firemen did sign on the dotted line, when the contract is changed, they are legally allowed to protest, and if 4000 of them are being laid off, and the remaining forces being made to work longer hours, then its understandable that the union, whose sole job is to protect the workforce from precisely this, are going to kick up abit of a stink.

    the strike itself is more a publicity stunt, and its clearly working. however its not necessarily got them any positive publicity, as the above post highlights. hopefully itll all get sorted by friday thou, and solve a whole loada headaches for a whole loada people.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    thing is though, every public service is facing cuts and changes to their original contracts. if folk in the public sector dont like it, they should find jobs which match their expectations.

    or

    folk in the public sector could be grateful for the jobs they have and consider the alternative of going without a job at all.
  • CraigXXLCraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    I think this is more to do with the unions rather than their individual members but at the same time in the last couple of weeks the stories of intimidation giving to the temps standing in was disgraceful.
  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    Why did they take the job in the first place.... you signed the dotted line!

    Bit of an irony bomb that don't you think? Yes they did sign on the dotted line, it's not them that's seeking to change what they signed up to, it's the brigade. Say what you like about the union, the way the management are operating here is disgusting.

    Incidentally bonfire night sees less callouts than most other nights of the year.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • There was a firefighter on the radio the other day, who I think came up with a brilliant idea. Rather than go on strike, he proposed that firefighters work as normal to help in emergencies, but don't do the day to day tasks, of checking water points, fitting smoke alarms, giving demonstrations.

    Apparently they did this back in the 70's, it doesn't affect the public, but it causes a huge amount of paperwork and a lot of headaches for the councils. The fireman then went on to say that it's a simple job, and not as dangerous as it's made out to be.

    Now I'm not agreeing with his last statement, however I think his idea of stopping routine visits is the way forward.
    It takes as much courage to have tried and failed as it does to have tried and succeeded.
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  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    it certainly sounds like a safer way to make a protest but it doesnt have the attention grabbing potentil that a strik on bonfire night does.
  • True, but I think it's grabbed them the wrong attention, as the public are going to boo them from what I've heard. They may find that the public actually support the councils decision :shock:
    It takes as much courage to have tried and failed as it does to have tried and succeeded.
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  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    i agree, the fire service normally get plenty of support, it makes sense, they are essential to a civilised society.

    but

    they are going to get very little support from a nation currently in the business of tightening belts and reducing spending. not least because they have chosen a night (quite deliberately of course) when the british nation sees the need for them.most

    a different night might not have got such a lot of news but it certainly wouldnt have generated so much anti support.
  • elliebellieb Posts: 436
    thing is though, every public service is facing cuts and changes to their original contracts. if folk in the public sector dont like it, they should find jobs which match their expectations.

    or

    folk in the public sector could be grateful for the jobs they have and consider the alternative of going without a job at all.

    Or they could defend themselves by going on strike. After all it isn't them who got the country in the state it is in.

    When Bankers threaten to leave the country if they are threatened with being taxed appropriately this is known as 'market forces'. Why is this withdrawl of labour not seen as them 'going on strike' and treated with the same opprobrium as when a group of people who do something useful withdraw their labour?
  • CraigXXLCraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    They have other means of protesting that don't involve putting peoples life at risk so that they can benefit.
  • CraigXXL wrote:
    They have other means of protesting that don't involve putting peoples life at risk so that they can benefit.

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  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    CraigXXL wrote:
    They have other means of protesting that don't involve putting peoples life at risk so that they can benefit.

    They've been in informal negotiation for years and in formal negotiations since February IIRC, you can't talk as if they're using strike action as a first recourse.

    Again, it's not about them "benefitting", they're fighting a change to their conditions, not fighting to make a change. They're having negative changes forced on them. (which mangement claims are trivial, yet still insist on forcing through at all costs).

    If you think the strike's putting people's lives at risk, what do you think will happen if LFB go through with the threat to sack any firefighter who refuses to sign the new contract? Brian Coleman's happily talking about "doing a Ronald Reagan" and destroying the London fire service and rebuilding from his predicted 1/3rd of current staffing. (assuming that all of the non-union firefighters and the 1000 who didn't vote for a strike re-sign, which is a huge assumption)

    What happens to an organisation that sacks 2 thirds of its experienced workforce overnight? I've seen it happen in places I've worked, the difference is, nobody died when those services inevitably collapsed. But he's "comfortable with that". I don't know how long it takes to train a new firefighter but I reckon it's more than a couple of days.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    What are these changes?
  • CraigXXLCraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    The basis of this strike is that the management want to change the current 15 hour night shift and 9 hour day shift to a 13 hour night shift and 11 day shift. They aren't being asked to work more hours over their 4 day shift 4 days off rotation or less pay just vary their hours so they can put more time into fire prevention by factory visits, installing smoke alarms and the like. What they will loose out on is the time spent in their bunks during shift on a night which means they would need to catch up on their sleep when not on shift, something that most people do as we don't sleep at work. If they are sleeping when not at work then they will not be able to work second jobs which a lot of firefighters have, not due to lack of pay but due to having a shift pattern that allows them to do so.
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    I've never understood why it takes a fire engine and many fire fighters to do these visits. They were doing the rounds here lately, in an engine!

    Surely the solution is to have dedicated people to do this sort of thing, and have the FFs free to do what they do best.

    Saying that, I can't agree with strike action for this.
  • CraigXXLCraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    Having more people increases the cost and your council tax which and people hate been taxed more. The engine and crew go as one so they can respond to a callout regardless of what they are doing or location.
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Ah I see, logical really!

    Having said that I have seen some have cars now.
  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    supersonic wrote:
    Saying that, I can't agree with strike action for this.

    The strike action isn't just about this- like I mentioned up the page, the LFB has decided that instead of negotiating a new deal they'll just issue a new contract, and any firefighter who refuses to sign the new contract will be sacked. So you can say it's a minor change, but if so why are they using the threat of termination to force it?

    It's not more hours to work, it's just a different way of working it- and that sounds like nothing but how would you like if your own hours of work were suddenly shaken up? It's not a little thing, you base your life around your work, especially if you're working shifts like this. If your boss suddenly says "Right, instead of 9-5 monday-friday you work friday nights, saturdays and sundays" would you say "Ah fair enough, it's just the same number of hours after all and I should be glad I have a job?"

    The second jobs thing is a total sham, and shows CraigXXL's buying the management line I'm afraid. Less than 1/3rd of London firefighters works a second job, yet 79% of members voted for the strike- apparently to protect the second jobs they don't have. You don't need to be a genius to realise that we're being fed bulls**t there, no matter how happily it's been picked up by the press as if it were gospel. And just proves how little you can trust what you hear.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    I got my hours changed all the time - I think to an extent changes like this are inevitable.

    The termination is a bit harsh I agree. But striking, especially on a day which has some meaning, is going to turn a lot of the public away from their cause I feel. But we haven't seen their existing contract or the new one yet.
  • CraigXXLCraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    Both of my mates in the West Yorkshire Fire Service have second jobs one is a plasterer and the other a tiler, needless to say most of their earnings from this aren't declared. That's no management line but fact.
  • supersonic wrote:
    I've never understood why it takes a fire engine and many fire fighters to do these visits. They were doing the rounds here lately, in an engine!
    I may be wrong, but i heard that it was, as CraigXXL pointed out, so they were on call, but also they can check that fire engines can access all areas. Can't really judge that in a car.
    Northwind wrote:
    The second jobs thing is a total sham, and shows CraigXXL's buying the management line I'm afraid. Less than 1/3rd of London firefighters works a second job, yet 79% of members voted for the strike- apparently to protect the second jobs they don't have. You don't need to be a genius to realise that we're being fed bulls**t there, no matter how happily it's been picked up by the press as if it were gospel. And just proves how little you can trust what you hear.
    Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but where have you got your statistics from? How do you know what you've heard isn't bulls**t?
    From what I heard, a hell of a lot of them have second jobs, I don't know numbers, but a lot were saying that they would have to commute for up to 2 hours to get into work, and 2 hours back, meaning they'd miss their children going to bed etc. Well I know a lot of people that do this every day of the week. They don't have the luxury of then getting 4 days off to spend time with their children. I agree, being told your shifts are changing is bad, but they still have more time off, and better pay, than most people I know.

    I think firefighters should have the right to protest if they are angry about something, however, there are many other options than striking, which will hit the point home hard and quickly to those that can make a difference, and won't affect the public.
    It takes as much courage to have tried and failed as it does to have tried and succeeded.
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  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    supersonic wrote:
    But striking, especially on a day which has some meaning, is going to turn a lot of the public away from their cause I feel.

    What else should they be doing? Like I say they've already gone through negotiation after negotiation.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Northwind wrote:
    supersonic wrote:
    But striking, especially on a day which has some meaning, is going to turn a lot of the public away from their cause I feel.

    What else should they be doing?

    they should stop pissing and whining and be glad they have jobs.
  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    CraigXXL wrote:
    Both of my mates in the West Yorkshire Fire Service have second jobs one is a plasterer and the other a tiler, needless to say most of their earnings from this aren't declared. That's no management line but fact.

    That proves it then doesn't it :roll: From your extensive survey of 2 members a totally different service not involved in the dispute.
    Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but where have you got your statistics from? How do you know what you've heard isn't bulls**t?

    That was from the Mail, in an anti-strike story, though it's been widely reported- I think it's from LFB's own figures.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • supersonicsupersonic Posts: 82,708 Lives Here
    Northwind wrote:
    supersonic wrote:
    But striking, especially on a day which has some meaning, is going to turn a lot of the public away from their cause I feel.

    What else should they be doing? Like I say they've already gone through negotiation after negotiation.

    Why bonfire night? Badly timed ploy that will backfire. And I just don't think the public either is that bothered about a 2 hour shift change. I just don't see it working at all.
  • elliebellieb Posts: 436
    they should stop pissing and whining and be glad they have jobs.

    If your house caught fire or if you needed to be freed from a car following an RTA I imagine you would be rather glad they have.

    The point is.. they have jobs which are useful to society & society should recognise this by treating them accordingly: Not just judging a job's value by how much money you can make while doing it.
  • NorthwindNorthwind Posts: 15,475
    Public support isn't the be-all and end-all, it's not a popularity contest... Though I agree the bonfire night thing is a strange choice, I don't know what that's all about. Perhaps it's supposed to highlight that the change of shifts reduces night-time coverage which is when most fires and fire fatalities happen. Not sure really. I wouldn't have done it, then I'm not a union leader, I guess they think it proves a point.

    Apparently serious fires and fire fatalities are low on bonfire night- they get a lot more callouts but most are small, such as bin fires etc. Makes sense, you have less people at home, many people at controlled displays etc. But that doesn't help the PR side of it, the facts aren't actually all that important sometimes.

    But the fact is the brigade have offered to cancel all strikes if the sacking notices are lifted til negotiations conclude. That puts things smack in the hands of management IMO, they're claiming to negotiate with the FBU but they're keeping the axe hanging over their heads while they do so, that's not negotiation. And like I say it's the sacking notices that are the sticking point.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    ellieb wrote:
    they should stop pissing and whining and be glad they have jobs.

    If your house caught fire or if you needed to be freed from a car following an RTA I imagine you would be rather glad they have.

    The point is.. they have jobs which are useful to society & society should recognise this by treating them accordingly: Not just judging a job's value by how much money you can make while doing it.
    i dont need to be lectured on how important the fire service is, i understand completely.

    however, they still put their jeans on one leg at a time, they choose their proffesion and they shouldnt be exempt from making a few changes like everyone else in the public sector.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    The firemen should all be in fricking prison anyway.
    I mean, who is it that always "turns up first" at the scene of a fire? That's right, THE FIREMEN!
    Coincidence? I think not.

    That pyromaniac Sam is the worst of the nasty scrotes.
  • ive assumed that the choice of bonfire night is more threatening, as one would assume there would be more fires, and the LFB wouldnt want to not have the regular force in service. dunno how much truth there would be to that, but thatd be my guess as to why they chose that evening
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