suspension types ?

delcol

following on from my carbon thread, on my quest to find a new bike,, how much does suspension design effect the bikes performance and handling...
am looking at..
ibis mojo hd dw link...
knolly chilcotin 4 by linkage
santa cruz butcher app

i just wonder how much difference the differnt type of suspension make...

i know my demo 7 was alot plusher than my single pivot hekcler.. especially on the root and rocks.... but the heckler was better on the jumps than the demo, the demo just sucks everything up, it's that plush....
thanks again, d,c

bluechair84

areet delcol, haven't seen you on here in a while. Still riding the Delirium or getting rid? There wasn't much room in the shed for a new bike if I remember rightly

I'd say the geometry is the biggest thing affecting handling, but every suspension design has its own characteristics. So far, my favourite suspension technology was the VPP on an Intense 5.5 from a few years back - but I now prefer my Moment becuase the geometry is better suited to me.

joshtp

More than just the sus design.... For E.G with your example, travel, shock type and angle's all make a difference.

But really the best thing to do it to decide what you want, and then find a bike to full fill that, So lets say you want a 160mm AM bike, (thats quite a big thing in itself... AM can cover 140-170mm and everything in between, but for this lets just say you want a 160mm bike)

Well do you want a plush bike plough through stuff? or a sharp, nimble bike to pick lines and carve turns. Do you want something best suited to an uplift, or something perfectly pedal-able...? or maybe you want a super slack bike? or quite quick? do you want to ride British singletrack? Or alpine epic's? Or the mega? Then it comes down to weight and build style... tough or light....

Sus design really is just one small part of the whole package. Although obviously it does make a big difference.

Tell us what you want, be specific, and we'll try and help you decide what to get. Budget would be good too....


Judging by your examples though, your after a light (carbon?) slack and tough 160mm bike for big Alps stuff, like the mega. Something that can be built up light for trail centre's (at a push) or built to race the mega, or built for playing around on, an a bit of light DH...

Well, may I suggest the Scott Ransom carbon. Awesome frame, and can be built to handle allot of stuff. It's being replaced by the Genius LT next your too (but I would suggest that the Ransom is still better for what you want, the LT is longer, lighter and a bit more of a race bike...) So it should be available pretty cheap as a frame only. Has a great travel adjust/lock out bar mounted system too..... Plus its won more Mega avalanche's than any other bike, so its very capable.

delcol

hi b,c

not been on here for ages not had alot of time with work and family.. and my hols,,,, and riding...

the delirium is ians....
i sold the heckler 2 week ago to make way for the new bike....

as for what bike material ect aint to fussed,, i seen a mojo hd in a shop in whistler in sept and fell in love ( they carbon)

the full susser will mainly be used as my whistler bike i usually make two trips a year over there,, it would be my (whistler xc bike) so that translates to down hill that you have to pedal up to the top ... in may it would be used as my park bike to,, ( i wont need to take the demo in may as the garb zone aint open to bikes,,,) the bike will get little use over here mainly in summer if we get one i usually ride a hardtail in the uk...

i would be looking for something relativley slack 160mm minimum forks 150 pref 160 mm rear,, i prefare coil shock over air,, weight aint to much of an issue so long as it under 35lb
plush would be nice but i need it to be manoverable and nimble, defo needs to be pedalable to (those whistler climbs are epic)
budget aint to much of an issue as 2 of the bikes i listed are are 2k for frame and shock..

the guys @ bearbackbikng are sponserd by scott and have both ransoms carbon and genius both alu and carbon. aint to keen of the scott frames apart from the voltage fr..
hope that covers most thing thanks again for your help..
i loved the heckler the geometry and frame suited me, i just wonder how the other suspension types compare to the basic single pivot as i said in my firt post the demo is so much plusher than the heckler was..

bluechair84

Well... my recent history goes thus;
Teocali - got rid off because the suspension wasn't plush enough on rocky descents (it shares it design with GT so I steered clear of their 6" Sanction recently. I think a mag this year said a similar thing; that the sus isn't reactive enough.)
Intense 5.5 - gutted to get rid of as a move to America forced it. Still the best sus I've ever owned. Geometry was scary as hell though.
Cannondale Prophet - single pivot just didn't feel as capable as the VPP so I got rid to pick up....
Elle Moment - best bike i've owned. ICT designed sus is almost as good as the VPP, geo is much better. Now fitted with a DHX5 and it has tackeled Glencoe and Fort Bill admirably. Climbs incredibly well. In all, I would always go for a multi-linkage sus.

Why go for the Butcher rather than the Nomad with their flagship sus design might I ask (where APP = single pivot)?

supersonic

'plushness' has nothing to do really with the type of suspension, and single pivot can behave exactly the same as 4 bar when pedaling. I'll go into detail when not on my mobile!

bluechair84

supersonic wrote:

'plushness' has nothing to do really with the type of suspension, and single pivot can behave exactly the same as 4 bar when pedaling. I'll go into detail when not on my mobile!

Lookin forward to this

joshtp

OK, well you dont want much do you? If budget isnt a problem a Mojo HD with a CaneCreek Doublebarrel shock would be a good bet... but I would still be looking at the Ransom Carbon... great bike.

joshtp

bluechair84 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

'plushness' has nothing to do really with the type of suspension, and single pivot can behave exactly the same as 4 bar when pedaling. I'll go into detail when not on my mobile!

Lookin forward to this

*gets popcorn*

bluechair84

joshtp wrote:

bluechair84 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

'plushness' has nothing to do really with the type of suspension, and single pivot can behave exactly the same as 4 bar when pedaling. I'll go into detail when not on my mobile!

Lookin forward to this

*gets popcorn*

Salted

joshtp

bluechair84 wrote:

joshtp wrote:

bluechair84 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

'plushness' has nothing to do really with the type of suspension, and single pivot can behave exactly the same as 4 bar when pedaling. I'll go into detail when not on my mobile!

Lookin forward to this

*gets popcorn*

Salted

sweet

Chunkers1980

Butter... Can't wait.

joshtp

the suspense is killing me....

bluechair84

joshtp wrote:

the suspension is killing me....

8)

joshtp

bluechair84 wrote:

joshtp wrote:

the suspension is killing me....

8)

bluechair84

1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I press enter, I'm expecting ballons and fireworks and tinsel to fall from the ceiling, and Supersonic to burst through the door with a 1000posters GT Zasker!! That's why he's not at his computer to answer this... he's on his way with my prize!!

joshtp

bluechair84 wrote:

1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I press enter, I'm expecting ballons and fireworks and tinsel to fall from the ceiling, and Supersonic to burst through the door with a 1000posters GT Zasker!! That's why he's not at his computer to answer this... he's on his way with my prize!!

tough break.... I thought that would happen too, but in reality the counter just moves one up.

bluechair84

Anonymous

Pulls up a chair, and cracks his knuckles.

(shame I'm sort of busy avoiding work, or I'd dive right in here)

joshtp

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Pulls up a chair, and cracks his knuckles.

(shame I'm sort of busy avoiding work, or I'd dive right in here)

go for it anyway... if you get sacked you can thank me for all the extra time to ride your bike.

bluechair84

Right, well, as far as my experiences go, 'plushness' must be down to suspension design. What is the most common shock, a Fox RP23? Bikes kitted out with these shocks don't perform in the same way. The bikes capacity to be extremely capable downhill, or to limit bob is the ummm.... chain extension and something else Anti something. I think the VPP has this pretty spot on.

The reason I hated the design of the Teocali is because the BB was effectively on the swingarm - freedrive or not, it's just a fancy URT. I found the rear end utterly incapable of handling aggressive terrain because you were effectively standing on the rear triangle.

In summary then, plushness is affected by sus design... I sit on your face!

Anonymous

bluechair84 wrote:

I think the VPP has this pretty spot on.
In summary then, plushness is affected by sus design... I sit on your face!

BUT, VPP designs can vary. The beauty of VPP is that it can vary it's characteristics through the travel. It doesn't HAVE to, but that's it's main advantage over other designs.

The suspension design has ultimately very little to do with plushness.
An Orange 5, for example, is not as plush as a Meta, even though they're both single pivot. That's because the Meta has a linkage that activates the shock, changing the damper rate through the travel.
The spring rate on the Orange 5 ALSO changes, due to the geometry of the swingarm axis, and the angle the shock is driven at changing through the stroke, but the difference is not as pronounced as on the Meta.

bluechair84

Are you saying then that the linkage which drives the shock is not a part of the suspension design? I would consider the linkages as part of the suspension design.

Anonymous

The linkage is part of the design yes, but in terms of how we classify designs as VPP, 4-bar, or single pivot, what we're discussing is how the rear wheel is attached to the frame.

The linkage that drives the shock is secondary, although an important aspect, and it certainly can vary the responsiveness of the design.

bluechair84

Ok, I agree then that the rate of compression on the shock has the most pronounced effect, as shown in meta vs 5 example. The differences in the arc of a wheel moving on VPP and Horst is marginal and likely doens't make a massive difference. But no amount of mucking about with leverage ratios are going to liven up a URT, which I would also say to a lesser extent goes for I-drive and freedrive designs. They have a prounounced and noticeable effect on plushness - though I'll admit before anyone contradicts me otherwise, teocalis can be loved, I have suggested to someone on here not to buy a Teocali, who bought it and loved it.

joshtp

But you cant simply say that the design is what effects the feel... Rear shocks have a huge effect, not to mention spec... People forget about unsprung weight... That's why Maverick Forks feel soooo plush.

For E.G. Take a 5. It has a sus design that ramps slightly in the middle stroke, then becomes linear in the end stroke... this is because of the location of the pivot and shock, and the geometry. However, put a very linear shock in there, and a really light rear end, and it'll become linear, and very supple... this isnt actually a good idea as it would pedal like a ship, and blow through its travel... but you get the idea. Alternatively take a very linear frame. and put in a shock with a steeply rising rate, and it will feel pert and progressive... less so than, say a 5 with the same shock... but it will. Now, as yeeha said, VVP and other linkage driven single pivots are clever because they can use a linkage to change the angle of the shock during the stroke, and so change the effective spring rate through the stroke... a SC VVP for incesstance has a very linear start stoke, so its plush, this then rises sharply so as to keep the bike stable and efficient through the mid stoke, and then it levels off in the end stroke so as to make sure you get full travel, and it feels "bottomless" on big hits... However this design is intended to work with a shock... a RP23 for E.G. If you were to swap it for a shock with a heavy low speed compression tune, a quick mid stoke, and a heavy bottom out bumper, such as an old SPV, or the fox found on the new trek's (I think... this may be wrong) then I'm pretty sure it would ride much like a wallowy, sloppy bike with a more linear design, that ramps up at the end to avoid harsh bottoming.

Multi link bikes designed to eliminate braking forces or pedalling are another thing altogether....

Anonymous

The differences in the arc of a wheel moving on VPP and Horst is marginal and likely doens't make a massive difference

Doesn't make much sense though. WHICH VPP? You can design all manner of characteristics into the system, which is the beauty of it.

I do agree that URT-based designs are less reactive when standing on the pedals, and this has been thought of as a design characteristic in the I-drives. It can be just as plush when sat down though.

Having said that, I'd love to have a go on the GT Force Carbon, to see how the idea translates to a modern DH bike.

Anonymous

joshtp wrote:

Multi link bikes designed to eliminate braking forces or pedalling are another thing altogether....

Yes, because you can't, basically.
Me and Sonic have differing views on the whole brake issue. Well, we agree on the fundamentals, and the end result, but we differ on the implementation of "reducing" it.

joshtp

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Having said that, I'd love to have a go on the GT Force Carbon, to see how the idea translates to a modern DH bike.

Yeah! I think the whole concept of I-drive is brilliant, and pretty effective... it might not be the comfiest bike.... but they are damn fast. I do wonder though, how it translates to a big, long travel, rock garden swallowing DH bike. Would love a go.

joshtp

yeehaamcgee wrote:

joshtp wrote:

Multi link bikes designed to eliminate braking forces or pedalling are another thing altogether....

Yes, because you can't, basically.
Me and Sonic have differing views on the whole brake issue. Well, we agree on the fundamentals, and the end result, but we differ on the implementation of "reducing" it.

you cant remove the forces... simple physics says that... but you can channel the forces to somewhere that inst going to effect the feel of the bike, or waste energy in the shock. In some cases it can even be used to good effect... Like the Kona Braking arm thing, that pushes the wheel into the ground to give better traction.

joshtp

yeehaamcgee wrote:

joshtp wrote:

Multi link bikes designed to eliminate braking forces or pedalling are another thing altogether....

Yes, because you can't, basically.
Me and Sonic have differing views on the whole brake issue. Well, we agree on the fundamentals, and the end result, but we differ on the implementation of "reducing" it.

BTW... would you agree with the rest of what I said?