No austerity here...
Cressers
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It's like a replay of the Thatcher years.
Doubt he will be as strong though........None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
Richard North covers this extensively.
The Cleggerons will make a big show of it, will come back claiming that they've got some "big consetions" out of it and the EU steamroller will keep trundling on.
We're blowing billions on this scam, no wonder I vote UK Independance at each EU election.Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.0 -
I think we need the EU for trade but that's where it should have stayed, why has it turned into a whole extra tier of expensive government? As I recall we had a referendum to join the Common Market but this growth to the point where it over-rules our own laws has never been offered to the country to vote on.0
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Its a bit short sighted to view this as money we're simply not going to get back. Plenty of EU money comes our way.0
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Pross wrote:I think we need the EU for trade but that's where it should have stayed, why has it turned into a whole extra tier of expensive government? As I recall we had a referendum to join the Common Market but this growth to the point where it over-rules our own laws has never been offered to the country to vote on.
That is because Ted Heath covered up the true intentions of the EU to get it through.
Strangely enough all parties (or should that be self centered MPs?) with the exception of UKIP are pro Europe although the Conservatives will say they are not to gain votes.
It has been the EU's intention of a unified European state since 1957.
Where is our vote promised to us by both Labour and the Condervatives?
It's a treaty, not a constitution. Yeah, right :evil:None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
In my adult voting life I have never been offered the chance to vote as to whether the UK should remain a member of the EU. Nor have we in the UK been given a referendum to vote on the many changes in the original agreement and treaties that have happened since.
Plenty of EU money may come our way but it is only a fraction of that we give to them
And why the despair about wanting control over our own laws, taxation, immigration, foriegn affairs...0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I actually despair when I come across virulent euro-scepticism.
I'm perfectly happy to have a trading alliance with the EU, I just don't see why there is any reason to go beyond that (European court etc.). Why should the laws passed by our own elected government be subject to scrutiny by people from other countries? Having an additional layer of bureaucracy and government is an unnecessary waste of billions of pounds.0 -
I'll only agree to it if there is a monster Tour de EuropeWhat wheels...? Wheelsmith.co.uk!0
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Cressers wrote:In my adult voting life I have never been offered the chance to vote as to whether the UK should remain a member of the EU. Nor have we in the UK been given a referendum to vote on the many changes in the original agreement and treaties that have happened since.
Plenty of EU money may come our way but it is only a fraction of that we give to them
And why the despair about wanting control over our own laws, taxation, immigration, foriegn affairs...
The main problem with our involvement in Europe is that people simply don't have a clear understanding of what our association with Europe actually means for us. Because the natural position most people have is that "Europeans" are taking "control over our laws, taxation, immigration [and] foreign affairs...." and that they're their interests are somehow inherently different to ours. I guess most people consider just Europe somewhere they go on holiday.
Must be hard to fight all that ignorance though. Easier to just claim to be defending the UK from European bureaucrats while not actually doing so.
Anyway, this is quite topical. Interesting bit on Today this morning:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 138467.stm
I like the bit where the government makes a big deal about trying to put through an unnecessary Sovereignty Clause simply to satisfy anti-European brits who don't actually understand how it all works.0 -
pb21 wrote:Cressers wrote:but it is only a fraction of that we give to them
What fraction is it?
From the t'internet
"The latest figures show that over the ten-year period 1993-2002 inclusive, the UK paid over to EU Institutions... gross, cumulatively: £104 billion.
In those same ten years the UK received back, cumulatively: £64 billion.
So the UK's net contribution over that ten-year period was £40 billion, or an average of £4 billion per year.
The 2002 net contribution was £4.3 billion."
More recent figures are hard to find as the accounting is always for previous years.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
daviesee wrote:"The latest figures show that over the ten-year period 1993-2002 inclusive, the UK paid over to EU Institutions... gross, cumulatively: £104 billion.
In those same ten years the UK received back, cumulatively: £64 billion.
So the UK's net contribution over that ten-year period was £40 billion, or an average of £4 billion per year.
So we get back 6/10ths of what we put in, quite a big fraction then!Mañana0 -
So who has the other 40% then?0
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Oh, and what's the point in handing over billions only to get just over half back? Why not just keep that bit and give over the money that gets spent (the more cycnical may say wasted
) elsewhere? 0 -
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I've worked in schools in Eastern Europe which were recipients of EU funding and it's basically a complete and utter waste of money.
The managers attended very expensive "training weeks" in nice, sunny countries on a regular basis, came back just as useless as when they left but with a nice suntan and some lovely photos of the beach and the various social activities organised for them.
The EU also funded a €1500 laptop for our manager who a) already had a decent computer and b) was virtually IT illiterate.
EU projects out there tend to be a way for the wealthy to feather their own nests.0 -
johnfinch wrote:I've worked in schools in Eastern Europe which were recipients of EU funding and it's basically a complete and utter waste of money.
The managers attended very expensive "training weeks" in nice, sunny countries on a regular basis, came back just as useless as when they left but with a nice suntan and some lovely photos of the beach and the various social activities organised for them.
The EU also funded a €1500 laptop for our manager who a) already had a decent computer and b) was virtually IT illiterate.
EU projects out there tend to be a way for the wealthy to feather their own nests.
I'd suggest the way in which EU money helped regenerate Sheffield extremely successfully was not wasteful.
I'd suggest what you're describing is a little symptomatic of old political Eastern European habits rather than an EU issue per say.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Pross wrote:Oh, and what's the point in handing over billions only to get just over half back? Why not just keep that bit and give over the money that gets spent (the more cycnical may say wasted ) elsewhere?
Because continental Europe treats the UK, with some justification, like a basket case.
^^ This0 -
notsoblue wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Pross wrote:Oh, and what's the point in handing over billions only to get just over half back? Why not just keep that bit and give over the money that gets spent (the more cycnical may say wasted ) elsewhere?
Because continental Europe treats the UK, with some justification, like a basket case.
^^ This
Plus some of that 40% that gets spent in mainland Europe will have an impact on the UK economy. I think a part of this is that some people stuggle to see the bigger picture.Mañana0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:johnfinch wrote:I've worked in schools in Eastern Europe which were recipients of EU funding and it's basically a complete and utter waste of money.
The managers attended very expensive "training weeks" in nice, sunny countries on a regular basis, came back just as useless as when they left but with a nice suntan and some lovely photos of the beach and the various social activities organised for them.
The EU also funded a €1500 laptop for our manager who a) already had a decent computer and b) was virtually IT illiterate.
EU projects out there tend to be a way for the wealthy to feather their own nests.
I'd suggest the way in which EU money helped regenerate Sheffield extremely successfully was not wasteful.
I'd suggest what you're describing is a little symptomatic of old political Eastern European habits rather than an EU issue per say.
I was only referring to spending in the new EU member states. And the EU is in charge of giving out the money, so they should be checking whether it's being spent wisely. Buying a laptop for somebody who already has a nice laptop is not wise spending.
The "training weeks" I referred to were organised and run by the EU, and having seen the content (I checked it for any language problems for the manager), I can't see that as being good value for money at all.
OTOH, I'm sure that our national and local governments are no better. I can't understand people who say that they're happy to be ruled by incompetent British politicians but not incompetent EU politicians. My main problem with the EU is that I believe power should be concentrated in the Parliament, as they're the ones we elect in European elections.0 -
Remember that the EU institutions themselves have a cost that will come out of that £4B. Under their guidance are things like international aid support (DG-ECHO etc) plus contributions towards mutually beneficial services that wouldn't be paid for by individual member states (e.g. medium range weather forecasting, EMSA for security of international waters etc).
There's a hell of a lot of wasted money however. One only needs to look at the European Research Programme (FP7) to see prime examples of that. If could (and sometimes does) do really good stuff but the bureaucracy just doesn't often allow for it.
Yes I also agree that a lot of it is down to how the UK plays the game compared to other nations. Agricultural subsidies in France are a good example of that. There's no way that we'd get away with that (or even try to be honest). It's just not in the nation's psyche0
