Basso on Bert

DaveyL

Good old IVan

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/basso-l ... ce-in-2011

He sympathized with another rider facing doping charges, Alberto Contador. “Alberto is my friend and I hope the issue is resolved quickly and in a good way for him.”

Spoken like a true advocate for clean cycling, eh?

Is it really so hard for these guys to say something like "If he's been cheating then he should be banned, in accordance with the rules. There's no place for doping in cycling today."

iainf72

Funny you didn't post this about Holy David when he said the sameish thing, eh?

rick_chasey

Always quick to the defence of Basso

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

Always quick to the defence of Basso

Not defending him, I agree with Davey actually.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Always quick to the defence of Basso

Not defending him, I agree with Davey actually.

:?

C'mon, where's the partisanship?

iainf72

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... harks.html

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/ ... ent_143936

etc etc

DaveyL

I wasn't aware Millar had said that about this specific case - it's also disappointing coming from him. But then again, this is the same guy that was shocked when Vino tested positive in 2007. I suppose someone had to be.

I was also going to mention Schleck. Basically the same reaction as Floyd to the ejection of Basso and Ullrich from the 2006 Tour - "I'm sorry they're not here". Not, "If they've cheated, they shouldn't be competing."

Great to see more hard-hitting journalism from CN. They're on a roll this week. Tacit acceptance of Basso's 2006 Giro win, and 2004 & 2005 Tour podiums. Bad history, I guess.

Kléber

I don't think you'll find many guys going "isn't it great, my chances in 2011 are much better now" even if they think it inside!

Instead we get bland statements about wanting the matter sorted out, how he seems a nice guy, how they want to win thanks to their riding rather than a lab catching others etc.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

Instead we get bland statements about wanting the matter sorted out, how he seems a nice guy, how they want to win thanks to their riding rather than a lab catching others etc.

C'mon, these guys are friends with each other(all of them - more or less). You expect way too much of people who are friends. Wouldn't your friends say pretty much the same about you if you were accused of something. They would probably hope that
whatever happened would turn out the best for you. They would also probably even remain your friends. Wouldn't you support a friend of yours if he was in trouble? Even if found guilty wouldn't he still be your friend? It's hard for me to imagine dumping a friend
because he made a mistake, used bad judgement, or even committed a crime. If IB & AC are close friends, and why shouldn't they be, I doubt either will say much against the other, much like myself and my friends, and possibly you and your friends.

invincible

i think riders are in a no win situation with answering a questions about these situations,

if they support them they arent advocating clean cycling

if the dont then they create enemies with riders whos help they may need at some point or get the backlash of "your only saying that to improve your chance" or "you only won the tour because he was banned" etc

so they take the less controversial answer which the majority of people would not to stir up anything with the others in the sport

DaveyL

dennisn wrote:

C'mon, these guys are friends with each other(all of them - more or less). You expect way too much of people who are friends. Wouldn't your friends say pretty much the same about you if you were accused of something. They would probably hope that whatever happened would turn out the best for you. They would also probably even remain your friends. Wouldn't you support a friend of yours if he was in trouble? Even if found guilty wouldn't he still be your friend? It's hard for me to imagine dumping a friend
because he made a mistake, used bad judgement, or even committed a crime. If IB & AC are close friends, and why shouldn't they be, I doubt either will say much against the other, much like myself and my friends, and possibly you and your friends.

As Lance would say - SSDD...

dennisn

DaveyL wrote:

dennisn wrote:

C'mon, these guys are friends with each other(all of them - more or less). You expect way too much of people who are friends. Wouldn't your friends say pretty much the same about you if you were accused of something. They would probably hope that whatever happened would turn out the best for you. They would also probably even remain your friends. Wouldn't you support a friend of yours if he was in trouble? Even if found guilty wouldn't he still be your friend? It's hard for me to imagine dumping a friend
because he made a mistake, used bad judgement, or even committed a crime. If IB & AC are close friends, and why shouldn't they be, I doubt either will say much against the other, much like myself and my friends, and possibly you and your friends.

As Lance would say - SSDD...

So none of that would apply to you? You're not friends with someone who did something wrong? None of your friends will stand up for you? You won't stand up for any of your friends?
Well? How about it?

calvjones

DaveyL wrote:

I wasn't aware Millar had said that about this specific case - it's also disappointing coming from him. But then again, this is the same guy that was shocked when Vino tested positive in 2007. I suppose someone had to be.

I was also going to mention Schleck. Basically the same reaction as Floyd to the ejection of Basso and Ullrich from the 2006 Tour - "I'm sorry they're not here". Not, "If they've cheated, they shouldn't be competing."

Great to see more hard-hitting journalism from CN. They're on a roll this week. Tacit acceptance of Basso's 2006 Giro win, and 2004 & 2005 Tour podiums. Bad history, I guess.

One thing you have to admit about Holy David; he gave up his TT Worlds voluntarily, whilst St Ivan bent over backwards and made himself look a tw@t for all eternity with his 'intended to dope' defence to keep his ludicrous 2006 Giro.

liversedge

For once I'm with dennisn. Besides all of this. they're friends.

If one of my friends did something illegal or immoral I would try and support them if I could, obviously there are limits, but friends support their friends.

But then, friendship these days, especially amongst the younger generations seems to be more about people you know, than people you have an emotional bond with and whose well-being you care about.

Anyway, supporting your friend is different from condoning their actions - that's the small-minded mean-spirited way of looking at the world aka Bush/Armstrong often say "if you're not with me you're against me". That is the chant of the intellectual midget.

edit: embarrassingly poor grammar.

DaveyL

liversedge wrote:

For once I'm with dennisn. Besides all of this. they're friends.

If one of my friends did something illegal or immoral I would try and support them if I could, obviously there are limits, but friends support their friends.

But then, friendship these days, especially amongst the younger generations seems to be more about people you know, than people you have an emotional bond with and whose well-being you care about.

Anyway, supporting your friend is different from condoning their actions - that's the small-minded mean-spirited way of looking at the world aka Bush/Armstrong often say "if you're not with me you're against me". That is the chant of the intellectual midget.

edit: embarrassingly poor grammar.

Well perhaps this reinforces my point nicely. Not that I think the situation with a nobody like me or you and one of our mates who's got into trouble, is comparable with the situation of two riders at the top of pro cycling (lest we forget a professional sport, one which has had a massive drug problem for the past 20 years, one whose credibility is, let's face it, in the toilet), but... If one of my mates was cheating me out of money and career advancement, should I stand by him? Should I actually have this person as a friend? I'd probably be inclined to want to see justice done.

On the other hand, if we were both in it together, swindling the rest of our mates, well yeah, I'd probably stand by him.

simon_e

liversedge wrote:

friendship these days, especially amongst the younger generations seems to be more about people you know on Facebook than people you have an emotional bond with

I took the liberty of editing your comment

It seems to me that for people like these Bournemouth students online interaction or constantly messing about with a mobile phone is more important than what happens around them. But then the same could be said for TV. Both can be useful and/or entertaining but are frequently neither.

Returning to the topic, I believe riders are very mindful that comments said today may come back to bite them tomorrow. Pro cycling is a small world and while ideally we would like them to condemn dopers (thereby implying they themselves are clean and wish for a drug-free sport) doing so may well harm their career - even with a team, DS or manager that supports clean sport. I wonder how many clean riders still fear a false positive?

dennisn

DaveyL wrote:

liversedge wrote:

For once I'm with dennisn. Besides all of this. they're friends.

If one of my friends did something illegal or immoral I would try and support them if I could, obviously there are limits, but friends support their friends.

But then, friendship these days, especially amongst the younger generations seems to be more about people you know, than people you have an emotional bond with and whose well-being you care about.

Anyway, supporting your friend is different from condoning their actions - that's the small-minded mean-spirited way of looking at the world aka Bush/Armstrong often say "if you're not with me you're against me". That is the chant of the intellectual midget.

edit: embarrassingly poor grammar.

Well perhaps this reinforces my point nicely. Not that I think the situation with a nobody like me or you and one of our mates who's got into trouble, is comparable with the situation of two riders at the top of pro cycling (lest we forget a professional sport, one which has had a massive drug problem for the past 20 years, one whose credibility is, let's face it, in the toilet),

You have sort of hit the nail on the head here. Although it was my nail. Why is it that you
are a nobody? Notice I didn't include myself or anyone else in your list of nobody type people, just you. Why would you think of yourself as less a person / human being than a pro bike racer? How did these pro racers, in your mind, get elevated to some sort of more SPECIAL type of person than you? Do you honestly believe that these people are somehow better than yourself? That they are of a higher life form and therefore must answer to a stricter athourity? Why can't you believe that they are simply human beings, much like you and I? Is it so hard to believe that basically they ARE you and I, just with a different job? To be honest, I've been watching cycling for years now and haven't seen any proof that these riders are any smarter, dumber, have more(or less) common sense
or do anything(other than pedal a bike) better than myself. Why would I think that any of them are any better than myself?

Richrd2205

dennisn wrote:

You have sort of hit the nail on the head here. Although it was my nail. Why is it that you
are a nobody? Notice I didn't include myself or anyone else in your list of nobody type people, just you. Why would you think of yourself as less a person / human being than a pro bike racer? How did these pro racers, in your mind, get elevated to some sort of more SPECIAL type of person than you? Do you honestly believe that these people are somehow better than yourself? That they are of a higher life form and therefore must answer to a stricter athourity? Why can't you believe that they are simply human beings, much like you and I? Is it so hard to believe that basically they ARE you and I, just with a different job? To be honest, I've been watching cycling for years now and haven't seen any proof that these riders are any smarter, dumber, have more(or less) common sense
or do anything(other than pedal a bike) better than myself. Why would I think that any of them are any better than myself?

Dennis,
I know you've retired, but please, please, please avoid retraining as a psychotherapist....
It's actually quite a talent you have to simultaneously get & completely miss the point at the same time, for which you should be given credit: you do it outstandingly well; however, it's an utterly irrelevant skill, so is prob best not showcased on public forums


Anyhow, I think it's telling that the default response in the peleton is still one of the omerta generation: I think that we can tell that the mood has shifted when the default response falls in line with the OP asked for.

dennisn

Richrd2205 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

You have sort of hit the nail on the head here. Although it was my nail. Why is it that you
are a nobody? Notice I didn't include myself or anyone else in your list of nobody type people, just you. Why would you think of yourself as less a person / human being than a pro bike racer? How did these pro racers, in your mind, get elevated to some sort of more SPECIAL type of person than you? Do you honestly believe that these people are somehow better than yourself? That they are of a higher life form and therefore must answer to a stricter athourity? Why can't you believe that they are simply human beings, much like you and I? Is it so hard to believe that basically they ARE you and I, just with a different job? To be honest, I've been watching cycling for years now and haven't seen any proof that these riders are any smarter, dumber, have more(or less) common sense
or do anything(other than pedal a bike) better than myself. Why would I think that any of them are any better than myself?

quite a talent you have to simultaneously get & completely miss the point at the same time, for which you should be given credit: you do it outstandingly well;

I got the point. He said he was a "noboby". Too bad for him, having to think that. Are you also trying to tell me that simply because someone's a pro racer that they are a BETTER breed of human(or something like that) and must answer to a higher athority than what's required for you or I? These people ARE you and I doing a different job. They make mistakes, they do wrong things, they may or may not be nice people, they have parents and family, there lives are not perfect(just like you and I). Yet people seem to insist that they are MORE than us nobodies. I resent that and feel really sorry for the ones who put these guys on a pedestal. They set themselves up for all this with their hero worship.
No one will convince me that that's not what's happening here. Hero's turned out to be simply mortals, just like you and I.

DaveyL

dennisn wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

liversedge wrote:

For once I'm with dennisn. Besides all of this. they're friends.

If one of my friends did something illegal or immoral I would try and support them if I could, obviously there are limits, but friends support their friends.

But then, friendship these days, especially amongst the younger generations seems to be more about people you know, than people you have an emotional bond with and whose well-being you care about.

Anyway, supporting your friend is different from condoning their actions - that's the small-minded mean-spirited way of looking at the world aka Bush/Armstrong often say "if you're not with me you're against me". That is the chant of the intellectual midget.

edit: embarrassingly poor grammar.

Well perhaps this reinforces my point nicely. Not that I think the situation with a nobody like me or you and one of our mates who's got into trouble, is comparable with the situation of two riders at the top of pro cycling (lest we forget a professional sport, one which has had a massive drug problem for the past 20 years, one whose credibility is, let's face it, in the toilet),

You have sort of hit the nail on the head here. Although it was my nail. Why is it that you
are a nobody? Notice I didn't include myself or anyone else in your list of nobody type people, just you. Why would you think of yourself as less a person / human being than a pro bike racer? How did these pro racers, in your mind, get elevated to some sort of more SPECIAL type of person than you? Do you honestly believe that these people are somehow better than yourself? That they are of a higher life form and therefore must answer to a stricter athourity? Why can't you believe that they are simply human beings, much like you and I? Is it so hard to believe that basically they ARE you and I, just with a different job? To be honest, I've been watching cycling for years now and haven't seen any proof that these riders are any smarter, dumber, have more(or less) common sense
or do anything(other than pedal a bike) better than myself. Why would I think that any of them are any better than myself?

I was referring to the fact they are in the public eye and I am not, nothing more.

They are in the public eye, as top riders in a professional sport which is funded by sponsors, who in turn get their money from customers.

No_Ta_Doctor

I think there's a certain amount of getting carried away going on here.

One of the most interesting aspects of cycling as a sport is the fact that you need to cooperate with your competitors. It's a fascinating game of prisoners dilemma that's played out race after race. Your foe today is your accomplice tomorrow. It's not good to make enemies, and grudges are held for a long time. That's something that goes even deeper than omerta.

Let's not forget that many of these quotes from riders came out before the news of the plasticiser traces was leaked - news which still hasn't been officially confirmed (has it?)

We can all agree that a clean rider, the best in the world, losing two years f his career and all his credibility on the basis of a false positive would be fairly tragic. But being the cynics (realists?) that we are we don't think Contador was clean anyway, so we're fairly happy for him to be strung up (FF excepted), even if it does seem to be on a technicality.

Most of the quotes seem to be along the lines of "wait and see, further tests, check the science", which is a fairly neutral position. Everyone is aware of the possibility of a false positive, and that it could also happen to them one day. No point in condemning someone before the verdict is in. A few have added that the whole thing should have been kept secret until there was something definitive to show - I disagree with them, but understand their point.

What riders are probably aware of is that even if they preface any possible condemnation with a huge IF their quotes will make headlines with the if removed. "If Contador was doping he should be banned" becomes simply "Contador should be banned".

In short, no current rider will come out and condemn until all the evidence is in, and we shouldn't expect them to. I will, however, judge riders on what they say when the case is closed.

Kléber

dennisn wrote:

If IB & AC are close friends, and why shouldn't they be

How do you know they are close friends?

As it happens they are not friends, I don't think they've exchanged much more than a handshake and a nod.

dennisn

Kléber wrote:

dennisn wrote:

If IB & AC are close friends, and why shouldn't they be

How do you know they are close friends?

As it happens they are not friends, I don't think they've exchanged much more than a handshake and a nod.

Quote Basso "Alberto is my friend..." - from DaveyL's OP and the article he links to.
I suppose he's not telling the truth or maybe he is. Not even sure it matters.

Kléber

I think it's more a "he's a nice guy, we smile on the start line" sort of thing. After all, neither speaks very good English and they've never ridden together.

iainf72

They used to have the same doctor

Arkibal

Kléber wrote:

I think it's more a "he's a nice guy, we smile on the start line" sort of thing. After all, neither speaks very good English and they've never ridden together.

Discovery 2007?