Firefighters striking on Bonfire night
northernneil
Posts: 1,549
I know its always a 'tricky' one this, but even if you believe fully in the right to strike doing it so that it WILL CERTAINLY cause harm, injury and risk life to the general public is cynical beyond belief.
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it will cause preventable harm0
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so is cutbacks by fire authority that put the public at increased risk every night of the year including bonfire night 2011. Not a good time to go on strike due to general ill feeling by some to the public sector but the London fire service strike is not about pay.If suffer we must, let's suffer on the heights. (Victor Hugo).0
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As I understand it the main concern is that they are being asked to move from a 15 hour night shift / 9 hour day shift to two 12 hour shifts. What I don't understand is why this is considered an issue or why the FBU are claiming that it is a move towards shutting fire stations over night (would any Fire Authority / government really take that risk? I can't see it myself). As for striking on Bonfire night then it obviously makes sense, any Union going down this line wants the biggest impact i.e. BA strikes at holiday times, BBC strike originally planned for the Tory conference.0
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Pross wrote:As for striking on Bonfire night then it obviously makes sense, any Union going down this line wants the biggest impact i.e. BA strikes at holiday times, BBC strike originally planned for the Tory conference.
bit of a difference between causing inconvience for travellors and viewers (?) and actually placing peoples lives at risk. I am sure the public will be 100% behind them now !0 -
If silly fcukwits wants to light unmanageable bonfires knowing there will be no fire brigade cover so be it on their head.
Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it.
How in this day and age you can still buy fireworks beggars belief.
Anyway firemen don't like the new shifts as it'll impact on their 2nd jobs.0 -
It won't impact on 2nd jobs at all. If anything it will allow more time for secondary employment. The strike is about accepting changes people believe will result in cuts to fire cover. If they don't accept then they will be sacked and then re-employed on a new contract.Gazzaputt wrote:If silly fcukwits wants to light unmanageable bonfires knowing there will be no fire brigade cover so be it on their head.
Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it.
How in this day and age you can still buy fireworks beggars belief.
Anyway firemen don't like the new shifts as it'll impact on their 2nd jobs.If suffer we must, let's suffer on the heights. (Victor Hugo).0 -
Gazzaputt wrote:If silly fcukwits wants to light unmanageable bonfires knowing there will be no fire brigade cover so be it on their head.
Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it.
How in this day and age you can still buy fireworks beggars belief.
Anyway firemen don't like the new shifts as it'll impact on their 2nd jobs.
This - there shouldn't be an increased demand for firefighters on Bonfire night, the fact there is reflects on others not the fire fighters. Also, I'm sure that individual stations will break the strike if there is real threat to life. I still don't get their issue though. I can understand they don't want to be sacked so that they be reinstated on different contracts but not why they are so opposed to signing those contracts - I thought they agreed to these practices when they got a pay rise out of their last strike? I also don't know why they are allowed to strike when the police aren't.0 -
Maybe I''ve got it wrong but as I understand it the Fire Authority are going to sack everyone, then employ them again just to change their contracts. If that's correct then why don't the FBU simply go to court? Surely it's against the law to sack them in the first place!0
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Pross, as I understand it the new shifts will allow the fire authority to close certain fire stations at night. There's currently 4 watches per station all working 48 hours over an 8 day period resulting in 24 hours a day cover. The new shifts allow the firefighters to cover those hours on day shifts only. They can then cut amount of firefighters required by half by closing the stations at night. Whether this is the intention of the fire authority or not, well I don't know.If suffer we must, let's suffer on the heights. (Victor Hugo).0
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I never cease to be amazed to why unions think they can win their cause by massively impacting the public... there is a risk of fires on Bonfire night, but the more likely impact is that events will be cancelled if the organisers think that fire brigade cover will be limited... that affects people's enjoyment.
In the same way, when BA service crew went on strike they affected people's holidays.
I support the unions in these battles with employers, but I can't support the way that the union force massive inconvenience on normal working people. There are ways to demonstrate grievances, in the case of the fire brigade, striking on bonfire night isn't the right way.
Cheers, Mombee - Ex-retained firemanhttp://www.mombee.com ... more than just bikes.
Cannondale CAADX Disc0 -
so, the fireworks have started already ?
Apparently, the union sent a rocket to the .... ahh I cant be arsed.0 -
Gazzaputt wrote:If silly fcukwits wants to light unmanageable bonfires knowing there will be no fire brigade cover so be it on their head.
Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it.
How in this day and age you can still buy fireworks beggars belief.
Anyway firemen don't like the new shifts as it'll impact on their 2nd jobs.
First lot I agree with. Last sentence is a bit off, they're legally entitled to have a second job.
Lets not forget that many councils have looked into moving to full-on voluntary fire services in the past (Hampshire Council being on). Imagine the outcry if the NHS said, "right! All paramedics will be on a voluntary basis" or "you dont need as any paramedics at night because people are tucked up in bed"
there'd be outrage.
I REALLY dont understand why we in the country think its acceptable to keep cutting and chipping away at vital services like this.0 -
Mombee wrote:I never cease to be amazed to why unions think they can win their cause by massively impacting the public... there is a risk of fires on Bonfire night, but the more likely impact is that events will be cancelled if the organisers think that fire brigade cover will be limited... that affects people's enjoyment.
In the same way, when BA service crew went on strike they affected people's holidays.
I support the unions in these battles with employers, but I can't support the way that the union force massive inconvenience on normal working people. There are ways to demonstrate grievances, in the case of the fire brigade, striking on bonfire night isn't the right way.
Cheers, Mombee - Ex-retained fireman
Speaking as someone in a job where my employer really does not care about adhering to contracts, sometimes striking is the only option. Our ongoing dispute has been happening since 2006 and the firm has consistently denied that they have any obligation to a legal agreement. Our strike will be a limited set of staff and over christmas.
I think there are many employers in this country that think they can keep pushing and keep cutting. If staff dont get things reconciled they end up leaving anyway, and the services, even whole companies can become unviable0 -
zippypablo wrote:
It won't impact on 2nd jobs at all. If anything it will allow more time for secondary employment.Gazzaputt wrote:Anyway firemen don't like the new shifts as it'll impact on their 2nd jobs.
I don 't know how their shifts work, but I do work with a retained fireman albeit from a different brigade,
he's of the opinion that although it will allow more free time for them to moonlight on 2nd jobs throughout the week,
loosing their night shifts means they will now have to sleep in their own time, rather than being paid for sleeping through their night shifts.0 -
This is all about the puffed-up self importance of fire chiefs running some tin-pot brigade combined with 1970s TU militancy. I spent 10 years in the fire and safety industry and the degree of duplication and waste astonishing - why we need 100 separate emergency services, each with their own dedicated control and management systems with restrictive trade practises i.e. demarcation between paramedics and fire services as to who can administer emergency medicine under what circumstances.
In terms of modifying employee terms and conditions, there is due legal process through consultation - or have public sector employees not heard that the economy is broke and therefore giving concessions to antiquated work practises might be good for their own jobs?Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0 -
Firefighters striking on bonfire night defies belief,these people are paid for by the public purse,but think it is a good idea to 'bite the hand that feeds them'.No doubt we will be inconvenienced by post office workers at christmas,transport workers on bank holidays etc. in future.0
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Kev, would you rather have a restricted service for one night, as the FBU are proposing, or a permanently inadequate service, which is what they are protesting about?
If the FBU (who 'defy belief') don't get their way, you will have restricted services on Bonfire Night 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....
Who you going to blame then? I'd suggest the people who are now vilifying the firefighters.Riding on 5310 -
Clarion wrote:.......
If the FBU (who 'defy belief') don't get their way, you will have restricted services on Bonfire Night 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015....
Who you going to blame then? I'd suggest the people who are now vilifying the firefighters.
Surely part of the argument is that by allowing more flexible rostering is that a better level of cover at appropriate times? At the moment shift change-over is at 6pm which, as the majority of fire calls (especially on 5 November) are between 4pm and 8pm is nonsense.
Changing to a 10pm handover gives substantially better fire cover just when it's needed.
Additionally, the LFB are not asking the firefighters to work longer hours or on a greater number of days as is being claimed but to work different hours on the days that they do work (ie two 11 day day shifts, then two 13 hour night shifts). They will still get the same 4 days leave between shifts rotas.
The FBU are looking to perpetuate outdated working practices with their origins in the 1970's when the requirements placed on the brigade were substantially different to those when the rota's were brought in getting on for 40 years ago.
See:
http://www.dorsetfire.co.uk/uploads/fil ... %201_1.pdf
for details of what is proposed (based on a review for Dorset FB) and has been adopted elsewhere in the UK.
It's difficult to have sympathy with the FBU's stance once you're read it.
Bob0 -
Gazzaputt wrote:Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it. .
LOL - "celebrations" have a sell by date Ha ha - well easter and christmas are quite a bit older - should we stop them too?
Hello! I've been here over a month now.0 -
Firefighters get high praise - indeed can be revered as heroes - when events such as 7-7 occured. Rightly so. However when these eminently reasonable and brave people speak out against changes that they see as unsafe they suddenly become despicable extremists. Doesn't this seem a little contradictory to anyone else?Hello! I've been here over a month now.0
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No, actually - just because people act in a heroic manner at times does not mean they are incapable of myopic self-interest.electric_blue wrote:Firefighters get high praise - indeed can be revered as heroes - when events such as 7-7 occured. Rightly so. However when these eminently reasonable and brave people speak out against changes that they see as unsafe they suddenly become despicable extremists. Doesn't this seem a little contradictory to anyone else?0 -
retained fireman
Two words that should not be used together !0 -
Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it. .
I agree, what do you think would have happened to bonfire night if Guy Fawkes had been a Muslim ?0 -
bompington wrote:
No, actually - just because people act in a heroic manner at times does not mean they are incapable of myopic self-interest.electric_blue wrote:Firefighters get high praise - indeed can be revered as heroes - when events such as 7-7 occured. Rightly so. However when these eminently reasonable and brave people speak out against changes that they see as unsafe they suddenly become despicable extremists. Doesn't this seem a little contradictory to anyone else?
I do not believe that people who regularly go well beyond the call of duty and risk their very lives would ever be guilty of "myopic self interest".
I can think of plenty of professions in both public and private sectors who are guilty of "myopic self interest" but would never have to go on strike as they seem to survive regardless along with their obscene salaries.
If a firefighter was particulalry selfish you'd think that they could pursue a different profession - one that pays quite a bit better and for a lot less personal risk.Hello! I've been here over a month now.0 -
The strike action is over the threat of mass sacking, nothing more!
Lift the threat, we all go back to work and negotiations continue on shift change.
The FBU are in agreement that a shift change will happen. The argument lies in all the attatched strings and redtape.
It has nothing to do with Beverick's ill informed input about longer working hours, if you were to look into it the proposed new shift changes will still fall between 4-8pm anyway. In any case 24hr cover is 24hr cover, it does not stop at the changeover.
JS0 -
dreamlx10 wrote:Anyway imo it's an out dated celebration for the sake of it. .
I agree, what do you think would have happened to bonfire night if Guy Fawkes had been a Muslim ?
A council in Somerset would move the bonfire 25 yards down the road through safety concerns and every tabloid in the country would start jumping up and down screaming about how the 5th Nov is being banned in case it offends the Muslims or something.
Despite two weeks of fireworks being set off every night, tabloid readers would believe what they read in the papers instead of what they see with their own eyes, and finish every sentence with "well, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to Pakistan."
Everyone else in the land would just go about their daily business in their normal way.0 -
Red Rock wrote:Maybe I''ve got it wrong but as I understand it the Fire Authority are going to sack everyone, then employ them again just to change their contracts. If that's correct then why don't the FBU simply go to court? Surely it's against the law to sack them in the first place!
No. 90 day notice is required to enforce a change of contract onto staff. if you refuse to sign up to the new contract you have effectively chosen to sack yourself.
It's been threatened to me on a couple of issues in 20 years but never come to it as the choice of unmployment or another broom up the fundament to sweep harder isn't a tough one unless you're sitting on a jackpot lotto ticket.0 -
No. 90 day notice is required to enforce a change of contract onto staff. if you refuse to sign up to the new contract you have effectively chosen to sack yourself.
It depends on the existing terms and conditions, the number of employees affected, and the length of service of an employee.
For example, an employer who decides to change employment contracts for 30 employees, without a variation clause in the existing terms and conditions, or prior consultation and agreement (with staff or union), might end up in deep water. If the employer gives a 90 day notice to terminate the contract of an employee who has been with the company for yonks, and re-engage on different terms, they might also end up in a tribunal.0
