Cycling standards in London

MattC59

I spent several hours in the Whitehall / Embankment area of London on Thursday, and having read countless posts on the problems cyclists have in London, I thought I'd observe the situation. Not living or cycling in London, this has interested me for a while (yeah, sad I know :? ), as I don't encounter any such issues in the Newbury area (obviously :roll: ).

Over the hours I was there, I think I saw one cyclist riding carefully and considerately.

I saw countless cyclists jumping lights, cutting up cars, riding on pavements, riding the wrong way down one way streets, and generally putting them selves in danger. I didn't see one cyclist stop for a red light !!!

One of said cyclists hit me as he came around a corner on the pavement. Fortunately, I saw it coming, dropped my shoulder and he bounced off me, hitting a lamp post at a fair speed. Guess what......... I was on the recieving end of some rather impressive and creative abuse, as apparently it was my fault !!!

I know it was a relatively small sample (I probably saw 30 or so cyclists) but in most cases, the drivers / pedestrians affected, shouted or beeped and were greeted with abuse.

I'm not trolling, or trying to wind people up, it just seems that the proportion of cyclists riding like idiots, appears to contradict the tales which you hear on here. Maybe it was just that area of London ?

Any thought or experiences folks ?

Cheers.......... M

spen666

sadly, you are probably right.

Pross

Cardiff's not much better to be honest although far fewer cyclists (Bristol also seems the same). I sometimes think I'm the only one who doesn't jump lights or ride on the footway. I can, however, understand why they do it as it probably adds 10 minutes to my commute sitting in car created delays. I also hate filtering as I either end up on the right hand side of traffic when it starts moving or risking my life going down the left of stationary vehicles. My commute goes something like - catch and pass slow moving cyclist, stop at lights, slow moving cyclist glides past and weaves through traffic or hops the kerb, I pass them again when lights change, process repeats 4 or 5 times, in my head I'm saying "why don't you just learn to cycle faster and stop at lights then you'll still get there in the same time and more safely" but I just leave them to get on with it. I even had a chat with a driver at the lights once who was amazed that I was waiting!

simonaspinall

I think you're right - Though there are a lot more people in London, much more densely populated, much more traffic intensive and I think there is probably a disproportionate problem as a result. You'd also have to think "how many pedestrians stop at red lights?" and how mnay car drivers do illegal u-turns, jump lights, park in ridiculuous places etc?

It's the cummulative effect of so many people and transport circumstances - doesn't make it right, it just happens. People rationalise their behaviour through all sorts of things and in London it seems to happen on a much greater scale - They see one person jump a light, so they can jump a light or think that they won't be caught, it's ok if they do it and so on.

I personally wouldn't like to cycle round London.....far too claustrophobic for that.

On a positive note for Londoners...full respect for having the bravery to cycle around that capital!

Also - The absolute frustration at the sheer number of traffic lights must send you space crazy!

deptfordmarmoset

I'm surprised at the proportion of bad cyclists compared to respectful cyclists that you saw, MattC. I know that there are a lot of people who use roads and pavements (cars, peds and cyclists alike) as they appear in the Myway Code, but I see a far higher proportion of law-abiding cyclists when I'm out on the road than you did.

I wondered whether my experience was different from what you saw because I'm pretty much a Highway Code cyclist and when I stop at a red light, the cyclist behind me follows my lead??? But that really must be vastly overestimating the influence of (mostly) exemplary behaviour.

MattC59

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

I'm surprised at the proportion of bad cyclists compared to respectful cyclists that you saw, MattC. I know that there are a lot of people who use roads and pavements (cars, peds and cyclists alike) as they appear in the Myway Code, but I see a far higher proportion of law-abiding cyclists when I'm out on the road than you did.

I wondered whether my experience was different from what you saw because I'm pretty much a Highway Code cyclist and when I stop at a red light, the cyclist behind me follows my lead??? But that really must be vastly overestimating the influence of (mostly) exemplary behaviour.

Perhaps it was just the area I was in, but I was amazed ! Hence posting my thoughts on here.

One guy (looked like a courier, but may have just been into the 'look') nearly put himself under a bus. The driver just braked hard, then carried on like it was a daily occurance (probably was !), he didn't have ago at the cyclist, but again, was on the recieving end of some abuse.

ride_whenever

You think london is bad, try oxford...

I've seen all of 3 people looking before they indicate and move, and only 5 actually indicating... Most seem to just aimlessly wander across the roads at about 8mph i'm amazed there aren't more deaths.

pintoo

I'm a London cyclist and I have to say that I am as saddened by much of the riding I see as I am by the poor standards of other road users - including pedestrians. However, you can only be responsible for your own actions and I hate being lumped into a group as if everyone is a stereotype based on their transport choice.

I have noticed something new on London roads recently. People on folders used to be bottom-feeders. They aren't any longer - that title now goes to Barclays Hire Bike riders. BTW - I typically use a folder in town and I now also use the Barclays bikes. It's interesting to see how other cyclists treat you when you're on one of those things.

It seems strange to me that the OP didn't see anyone stop at a red. I know I always see a fair few people waiting with me at red. But I'm not disputing it. I see far more ride through.

Tostaryman

MattC59 wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

I'm surprised at the proportion of bad cyclists compared to respectful cyclists that you saw, MattC. I know that there are a lot of people who use roads and pavements (cars, peds and cyclists alike) as they appear in the Myway Code, but I see a far higher proportion of law-abiding cyclists when I'm out on the road than you did.

I wondered whether my experience was different from what you saw because I'm pretty much a Highway Code cyclist and when I stop at a red light, the cyclist behind me follows my lead??? But that really must be vastly overestimating the influence of (mostly) exemplary behaviour.

Perhaps it was just the area I was in, but I was amazed ! Hence posting my thoughts on here.

One guy (looked like a courier, but may have just been into the 'look') nearly put himself under a bus. The driver just braked hard, then carried on like it was a daily occurance (probably was !), he didn't have ago at the cyclist, but again, was on the recieving end of some abuse.

Well my experiences in London aren't too bad I must say, although the number of people who RLJ does surprise (and irritate) me. Having said that, if it was a courier you saw, then I am quite happy to say that the VAST majority in London are complete and utter t*ats. As a breed they are generally aggressive and arrogant in my experience. Saw an unbelievable example last week when a courier crossed Oxford St carving right through a RL and swerving around buses coming from both directions - both of which had to slam their brakes on - before carrying on his way. Total a-hole, although probably a dead a-hole within 12 months.

Pross

simonaspinall wrote:

I think you're right - Though there are a lot more people in London, much more densely populated, much more traffic intensive and I think there is probably a disproportionate problem as a result. You'd also have to think "how many pedestrians stop at red lights?" and how mnay car drivers do illegal u-turns, jump lights, park in ridiculuous places etc?

Not really, pedestrians have no legal obligation to stop a red signals as they are just advisory to let them know when it is safe to cross (with care). Traffic lights on the other hand require a vehicle to stop at the stop line. Agreed that many motorists also break laws (I've just completed a driver awareness for unintentionally jumping a red light :oops: ) but that doesn't excuse cyclists doing so too although I can fully appreciate the frustration of getting held up at every junction.

Gazzaputt

Yep your right.

I've been ride to from work for over 15 years into central London.

The past 5 years cycling in the capital has massively grown.

Problem most of these idiots that have taken it up have no road sense nor common sense.

spen666

Gazzaputt wrote:

Yep your right.

I've been ride to from work for over 15 years into central London.

The past 5 years cycling in the capital has massively grown.

Problem most of these idiots that have taken it up have no road sense nor common sense.

Never mind road sense or common sense - what many of these people lack is any consideration or appreciation of how their actions affect others people.

Too many people these days talk about "I" and "My" without any consideration that every action they take has an effect on others

MattC59

Just thought I'd add.............

The red light jumpers include jumping red lights at pedestrian crossings, not just at junctions. Most slowed, wobbled about a bit, then rode through gaps in the pedestrians. At junctions, again, most slowed, stopped, crept forward in an attempt to maintain a track stand, then continued anyway.

So although it was happening, my observations weren't completely of cyclists jumping red lights as if they weren't there.

MattC59

Gazzaputt wrote:

Problem most of these idiots that have taken it up have no road sense nor common sense.

If you look in the commuting or campaign section, there appear to be a lot of these 'idiots'.

No disrespect to anyone who frequents those sections of the forums, I wasn't taring you all with the same brush. But there are a number of posts which indicate a level of 'I'm a cyclist, I'm in the right' type arrogance.

mroli

Mattc - I kind of generally agree with you that there are a lot of twats on the road. I would disagree with the proportion however - I guess you got a bad lot as generally the route I take, I reckon 50-75% of people will stop for red lights.

I can't believe a cyclist gave you a hard time for hitting you on a pavement??!! What a prat!

Silko

Sadly, your observations are a fair representation of cycling in that part of central London. I work in Westminster and frequently walk through Whitehall, Trafalgar Square, Charing Cross Road, Oxford Street, etc., and it is embarassing to watch as a cyclist.

It's that whole, 'I'm vulnerable, self important, saving the polar bears and in a screaming hurry, so f*** everyone else' mentality.

To sum it up perfectly, I recently witnessed police close off Whitehall because of a suspect vehicle. A cyclist tries to ride through and is told by the police officer that the road is closed. The reply? "But I'm on a bike...' When he was told again that the road was closed, he had a tantrum and went to cycle off in a huff, only to nearly ride into the side of a bus because he didn't look.

Silko

Sadly, your observations are a fair representation of cycling in that part of central London. I work in Westminster and frequently walk through Whitehall, Trafalgar Square, Charing Cross Road, Oxford Street, etc., and it is embarassing to watch as a cyclist.

It's that whole, 'I'm vulnerable, self important, saving the polar bears and in a screaming hurry, so f*** everyone else' mentality.

To sum it up perfectly, I recently witnessed police close off Whitehall because of a suspect vehicle. A cyclist tries to ride through and is told by the police officer that the road is closed. The reply? "But I'm on a bike...' When he was told again that the road was closed, he had a tantrum and went to cycle off in a huff, only to nearly ride into the side of a bus because he didn't look.

Rushie

I've been commuting by bike from West to Central London for about 12 years now, and I have to say Matt the problem is nowhere near as prevalent (on my routes at least) as you describe. One interesting phenomenon that only seems to have occurred in the last 2 years or so is riders stopping at lights because others are doing so, and it seems to be a function of increased rider numbers in the last few years - a critical mass if you will. A rider going through a red light when he/she's the only one there will often stop at the next set of lights if there are 3 or 4 riders already there and stopped.

Must admit, my days of RLJing only ended when I was shamed at being caught doing so by a neighbour who was also riding home at the same time.. :oops: .

My take on all this is to try to respect other people's space on the road as much as possible and hope they do the same for you. Not always as easy as that I well know... FWIW I have much more trouble with peds on my route than drivers or motorbike riders.

MattC59

mroli wrote:

I can't believe a cyclist gave you a hard time for hitting you on a pavement??!! What a prat!

I was fortunate enough to brace for the impact and I suspect that he came off worse. To be honest, I was more impressed with his eloquence and the creativity of his abuse

Headhuunter

Personally I haven't seen anything as bad as you describe and I live in London! However it's likely that the number of tw@ts driving, walking or cycling around London is likely to be higher than in any other UK city simply due to the enormous size of the population. Also cycling has become much, much more popular in London. Even since 2006 when I started commuting by bike I can see that there are a lot more cyclists on London's streets now. It's a fair assumption that a percentage of these will do things you disapprove of.

simonaspinall

Pross wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

I think you're right - Though there are a lot more people in London, much more densely populated, much more traffic intensive and I think there is probably a disproportionate problem as a result. You'd also have to think "how many pedestrians stop at red lights?" and how mnay car drivers do illegal u-turns, jump lights, park in ridiculuous places etc?

Not really, pedestrians have no legal obligation to stop a red signals as they are just advisory to let them know when it is safe to cross (with care). Traffic lights on the other hand require a vehicle to stop at the stop line. Agreed that many motorists also break laws (I've just completed a driver awareness for unintentionally jumping a red light :oops: ) but that doesn't excuse cyclists doing so too although I can fully appreciate the frustration of getting held up at every junction.

True, however I think pedestrian's rights come with responsibilities and just walking out into the road like a zombie almost as if they were trying to get hit, despite crossing in front of you after seeing you....just beggars belief. Pedestrians should still observe the basic green cross code, not just for my sake but for theirs!

Pross

Now that I agree with - how I haven't seen a fatal with people doing the herd instinct thing at pedestrian crossings is beyond me not to mention crossing side roads. I know that cars are supposed to give way if you are already crossing but the number of people who just go without even a courtesy glance for turning traffic 9or even looking and going anyway) is staggering.

Clarion

I used to commute into Westminster for a while, and I'm glad I don't have to any more. The standards of cycling are appalling. I found a back way through to avoid Embankment.

To be fair, the standards exhibited by all road users round there are dreadful, and a car, cab, van or bus switching lane without checking, or running a red light (and they frequently do) is much more hazardous than one prick on a bike.

Even so, I am surprised by the low numbers of decent cyclists you saw, even there.

I now ride on one of the busiest routes for cyclists: CS7. There are a lot of traffic lights along there, and a lot of RLJing cyclists. I think I see some go through almost every red. But they are a minority, usually. Last night, I saw four guys go through a light before I stopped. But there were another two cyclists stopped after me before the lights changed. That was noticeable as a place where the majority had broken the law. Usually, I will see one or two not stopping or else setting off early, but we'll be in groups of eight to twenty, depending on where we are.

It's not good. And it's certainly not good that some of the people doing this look like regular cyclists, and should know better. But I don't think it's as bad as you might claim.

And, of course, I see a large number of motorised RLJs on every commute.

dizzydane

I agree with you Matt. I ride 7 miles every day to and from work and most days find myself embarrassed to be on the road with other cyclists. I've been riding the same route for nearly 5 years from SW London to the city and as the cycling population has grown, the riding standards have deteriorated.

There seems to be no fear any more.... Now that there are cycle lanes and cycling is being encouraged by the mayor, we need more controls for this system.

Gaz has done a fine job at capturing these 'talented' cyclists:
http://www.youtube.com/user/gaz545#p/u/1/_i2E8fT5xko

Bring on the winter! A majority of the riders tend to disappear when the temperature drops. Leaving the rest of us with some quieter roads to commute on.

Pross

Some of those were obvious but without sound it was hard to tell what he feels some others did wrong. The one just appear to be a 'silly cyclist' because he was much faster and had to overtake and another's fault seemed to be he was much slower and was blocking the cycle lane unless I missed some seriously bad riding :?

simonaspinall

Makes you glad for living in Yorkshire

You only tend to see riders who really are committed with the hills and weather...almost like a barrier to prevent bad cyclists!

hells

I ride to work all over London although mainly east and central London, My second job requires an East end to West end commute and riding out into the countrryside requires completely crossing London . I also experience riding in London at a variety of times due to my rotational shifts. I often feel like I am the only non RLJing cyclist in London I would say roughly 90% of all cyclists always jump every light. Usually I am the only one that actually bothers to stay at the stop line until it changes to green, most either go straight across no waiting or slowly inch their way across, another common method is for them to appear to be going left on red but then swing around in that junction to then carry on straight across. Virtually no one stops for red pedestrian crossing lights or zebra crossings. The ones that are the worst of all offenders at the moment appear to be the boris bike riders, how I have not yet had the joys of attending to an offed boris bike rider at work I do not know. I always follow the rules of the road, I have hit a pedestrian once though on old street they ran out from in front of a bus they didnt look atall and were wearing earphones. It was only a shoulder brush no one was knocked over I mouthed sorry to them and they just shrugged and continued running across the road almost getting taken out by a motorbike.

superkenners

The concept of stopping at red lights in London is seriously flawed, I must pass 30 each way on my 20 mile round trip, many of which involve an empty ped crossing as ped hit button and crosses leaving traffic to wait. Others where turning left of going straight on you cross no traffic and more often than not stay in the cylce lane. Work out the time, it adds 10 mins at least each way.

More importantly though often its safer to use a window in the traffic when lights are red (if you know your route well) than hang around to get carved up by mopeds, motor bikes, buses, white vans etc at the lights.

Worth remembering that red lights are not designed for cycle users, my safety comes ahead of that any day.

superkenners

The concept of stopping at red lights in London is seriously flawed, I must pass 30 each way on my 20 mile round trip, many of which involve an empty ped crossing as ped hit button and crosses leaving traffic to wait. Others where turning left of going straight on you cross no traffic and more often than not stay in the cylce lane. Work out the time, it adds 10 mins at least each way.

More importantly though often its safer to use a window in the traffic when lights are red (if you know your route well) than hang around to get carved up by mopeds, motor bikes, buses, white vans etc at the lights.

Worth remembering that red lights are not designed for cycle users, my safety comes ahead of that any day.

Headhuunter

Superkenners wrote:

The concept of stopping at red lights in London is seriously flawed, I must pass 30 each way on my 20 mile round trip, many of which involve an empty ped crossing as ped hit button and crosses leaving traffic to wait. Others where turning left of going straight on you cross no traffic and more often than not stay in the cylce lane. Work out the time, it adds 10 mins at least each way.

More importantly though often its safer to use a window in the traffic when lights are red (if you know your route well) than hang around to get carved up by mopeds, motor bikes, buses, white vans etc at the lights.

Worth remembering that red lights are not designed for cycle users, my safety comes ahead of that any day.

At the risk of turning this into another one of "those" threads, I entirely agree. Most of the road network including many traffic lit junctions are designed with bulky, heavy, relatively unmaneuverable motor traffic in mind. Just as peds are able to easily nip between gridlocked motor traffic, so can bikes, entirely safely, as you explain, to avoid getting cut up my people accelerating away from the lights... OK it's the law to stop at reds but both roads and road law are largely designed for people in cars.

spen666

Headhuunter wrote:

.... OK it's the law to stop at reds but both roads and road law are largely designed for people in cars.

house design and the law on burglary are largely designed for house owners and the law abiding, so presumably you will have no issues if you get burgled by someone who is neither law abiding nor a house owner.

The law on shoplifting is designed to suit shop - so presumably its ok to shop lift




Well that is the logic you appear to be using