How many cyclists here are also motorcyclists?

keefsloan

As a motorbike rider for over 12 years (including IAM, Class 1 training and some club level 600cc racing on UK tracks) I consider myself to be an above average rider, especially with regards to safe road riding. I've only been riding a cycle to work for the past 4 weeks (15m each way), and I still ride the motorbike on a couple of days out of necessity, but I'm amazed at the amount of cyclists that seem to have absolutely no idea of basics such as road positioning, life savers, meanings of road markings (solid lines, and especially ziz-zags at zebra crossings) and general road courtesy. As a rider you're pretty quickly made aware that blame doesn't enter into any argument with a car - if you're sliding down the road on your arse then, regardless of who's fault it is, YOU are going to come off worst. I notice that a lot of my riding skills are replicated when I ride a bicycle. Things like road positioning, forward vision and forward planning and general awareness are all things that seem to come as second nature, probably because of the tens of thousands of miles I've done and the training that I've received.

So I'm just curious. Any other bikers out there who also ride a bicycle that notice a transfer of skills?

asprilla

I thought all motorcyclists also rode bikes adn that's why they frequently get confused and pull into ASLs on their motorbikes......

Or try to filter, but forget how wide their motorbike compared to their bike.is and accidentally block all the filtering options for everyone else.

downfader

Asprilla wrote:

I thought all motorcyclists also rode bikes adn that's why they frequently get confused and pull into ASLs on their motorbikes......

Or try to filter, but forget how wide their motorbike compared to their bike.is and accidentally block all the filtering options for everyone else.

LOL that must be London-centric behaviour... I rarely see bikers filter like that. ASL use yes, filtering no.

asprilla

I can also understand how the use of the term bike lane rather than cycle track can be confusing, as can the rules governing which bus lanes they can and can't use, especially when those signs are so small...

I was only thinking this morning on the way in how great motorcyclists and hairdryer pilots are and how their adherence to the rules of the road, their general behaviour and the gracious way in which they refrain from bullying more vulnerable road users is an example to everyone.

Oh, wait, that's all complete rhubarb isn't it.

Sorry, don't let my general grumpiness put you off. I'm tired, have not had chocolate yet and motorcycles / scooters are my general bugbear at the moment.

lardboy

I started riding a motorbike aged 17 (Honda CB125, then an original Yamaha RD350 Powervalve), and carried on for 5 or years until I realised that I didn't enjoy riding a motorbike in London too much. Since then I have only ridden motorbikes on hioliday in the states, where the roads are wider and drivers are more accepting of them. The last point might also be because I only ride Harleys over there, so they see me as one of them!

In terms of road skills, I think riding a bike of any kind, after suitable traning, will make you a better road user. It's the training and then experience rather than the vehicle that counts. When I tried to learn to drive a car, my instructor was amazed by how much road awareness I had, with things like looking for reflections in shop windows and through cars being complete second nature

At one point as we were driving along, he asked me "What's coming up that you need to be aware of?"

"Level crossing and traffic lights."

"What about the hump backed bridge in front of you?"

"Well, as I'd already slowed down and covered the brake in anticipation of that, I thought you meant the signs I could see on the other side of it."

"One step at a time lardboy, one step at a time"

crankycrank

I was riding bicycles a few years before the motorbike but started riding MotoX when I was 13. Best training I could imagine to transfer to a bike. I learned all about riding with different levels of traction. Mud, sand, wet, dry, bumps, cornering, steep hills, where to look, body positioning and how to use each brake to the best effect. The main skill I think I would take from street riding is that you become more aware of how invisible you are to many 4 wheelers. If they can't see a fully illuminated brightly coulored motorbike, what are your chances on a bicycle? And to answer the OP's question about poor skills of cyclists, I would say percentage wise when I'm on the bike I have far more potentially dangerous situations with other cyclists than cars.

Keith47

Been a motorcyclist for 30 years, cyclist for 2! Obviously feel a million times more vulnerable on the pushbike than the Fazer 1000, was knocked off pushbike 2nd week I had it, have morons pulling out in front of me on a daily basis, two HGV "drivers" pulled out on me just yesterday in the first 3 miles of my ride, have almost no such problems on the motorbike ( it's happened twice in the last 5 years!), but it's true that what you learn on the motorbike transfers well to riding the pushbike, ( and to car driving too for that matter). Simple rule is to expect EVERY other road user to try to take you out!! :?

Freshfunkmeister

I've been riding motorbikes ( on rd, on racetracks and moto - x ) and mountain bikes for about the same time about 13 years and have been commuting on a roadrace bike to work since January this year. My commute is from Epsom to Lambeth, a distance of 18 miles or so. I am lucky in that I start work at 0700 and finish at 1900 so I miss most of the really heavy traffic. The bottom line is expect the unexpected, expect people to pull out on you, cut you up, verbally abuse you etc etc. You'll always get self righteous cyclists and 'bikers who ride/cycle like they think that no-one else should be on the road apart from them !! I am lucky in that I know what it is like to drive, cycle and ride a motorbike on the road so know exactly what, where and when to look out for. I've always said that as part of a driving test should be empathy for other road users which would involve spending a day riding pillion on a motorbike or try cycling for a day through the city. People would be far more aware...

rf6

Been riding a motorbike for about 12 years or so. I did IAM training straight after passing my licence, which really helped my riding. I do think it makes you more aware of the hazards on the road, and certainly makes me more confident in terms of lane position.

My only problem is divvying up my time to ride with or without motor!

Pufftmw

Been a motorbike rider for over 20 years and many of those were as a courier. Since properly starting to commute a year or so ago, I notice that I ride a cycle the same way as I would a motorbike in terms of road positioning etc. I filter like a courier, I go down the outside of traffic, I make other road users aware of ME by positioning and eyeballing, followed up with demonstrable movements - I AM turning right - and I don't ride in the gutter. I also look ahead, I look in front of me, I anticipate road conditions (pot-holes, shell-grip etc) exactly how I would ride a bike.

cyclopsbiker

I've got a motorbike (but admit to not having ridden it for a fair while). I would never commute on my motorbike as my journey is too short, London traffic has never appealed and the exact opposite of how I like to ride my motorbike, but mostly because I'd miss the exercise from cycling. I agree that there is a cross-over of skills with road positioning (why ride behind the middle of a car/bus??!), I'm a much more confident cyclist because of my motorbike road skills. I think I'm better at reading the road up ahead and use that knowledge to plan what I'm going to do.

does anyone find they position themselves on the outside of traffic ready to pull off from lights/junction, only to realise they're on the bike without an engine??!?! that's a tad frustrating :roll:

yakk

Ditto everyone else. One thing not yet mentioned is picking the best line going down hill and cornering so that you keep your speed up and are in the best position to view ahead. And always looking for the hazards...
Yak

edb999

yep, currently on a zx6-r, and I agree definatley feel im a better cyclist for it.
I dont see why so many people get annoyed by motorbikes in asl boxes, has anyone actually come across one so full of bikes they cant get in? And its not like your going to get held up in the traffic light grand prix very often!

Sigurd

I've ridden motorcycles for over 20 years now and have to say that my style of cycling is very influenced by that experience.

My positioning is very confident, keeping my space while waiting for lights or a junction, keeping well out from the kerb, particularly when descending.

In observation I use all the little clues given off by other road users to predict their behaviour: body movements, hesitation, speed changes, the fact that you can see a wheel move before you can detect the vehicle moving and so on.

I also make sure that I catch the eye of drivers as I approach them or we're waiting at a junction.

Oh and filtering in stationary traffic, I've never held up a motorcycle.

Bigbud

I've found my motorbike training and commuting on the R6/Triple over the last few years has really helped and there are so many skills that transfer over.

The ability to read the road ahead and process the constantly changing situation around you is something cage drivers don't get or understand

Tried to explain counter steering to a colleague who rides a mountain bike and he would not accept he does it as well

Fireblade96

I guess my user name's a bit of a giveaway here....I've been riding motorbikes for more than 20 years, and commuted by motorbike for years. Now I tend to cycle around town as it's even faster than the motorbike, so the poor thing only gets used for longer runs.

The road skills definitely transfer to cycling - in particular the positioning and asserting your presence, but also thinking ahead and awareness of the road surface. Oh, and the "this car's about to do something stupid" radar !

chuckcork

I did have a motorbike, then dislocated my right knee (2nd time) so started to cycld to buildup the strength. End resut of that was doing a lot of cycling, and living in SW London at the time, finding I preferred to cycle that get stuck in traffic. At least I could get where I wanted to go without hassle, for all it was (barely) slower. In the end it was all cycling and no motorcycling so the CB500 got sold.

I do find the motorcycle instruction I had does come back again and agin, things like road positioning especially pre-positioning abd eyeballing other motorists, which has saved me a fair few near collisions. Shoulder checking is also a good skill, though I probably do it way too often, even walking along a footpath!

I only wish SCOOTER riders would do the kind of training that motorcyclists get, might stop them from being absolute tw*ts. All the power and speed of a motorcycle with none of the skill or responsibility or respect for other road users (especially teenagers and pizza delivery nutters) or an understanding of consequences.

mroli

Motorbike, scooter and bike for me (would never drive my car to work). All in that London. Don't have a motorbike at the moment - haven't had one for 4 years since a Polish HGV driver squashed mine flat the day after passing his test.

Yeah - I think it makes you more aware of the road, but I also think it makes you crosser when you see bad motorcyclists, to put alongside all those bad car drivers and those bad cyclists!

Oh and EdB99 - ASLs are permanently so full of motorcyclists on my commute you can't get into them. We should always leave a clear filter AND if we go into ASLs, leave the front of them clear. Its just manners innit.

asprilla

EdB999 wrote:

yep, currently on a zx6-r, and I agree definatley feel im a better cyclist for it.
I dont see why so many people get annoyed by motorbikes in asl boxes, has anyone actually come across one so full of bikes they cant get in? And its not like your going to get held up in the traffic light grand prix very often!

The problem is filtering to get there and then finding you are stuck in traffic, either in the gutter or between vehicles because the ASL is blocked and the cyclist is left sucking fumes from the high bike exhaust.

No-one complains because, generally, you just get verbal or the finger.

ASLs are for cyclists

Fireblade96

I'd never really given ASLs much consideration, I can only think of one single ASL in the whole of Reading !

Giving it a little thought, surely ASLs make more sense for motorbikes than they do for bicycles ? After all, they're going to out-accelerate the rest of the traffic and get out of everyone's way, whereas if there's a load of cyclists right across the front of one or two lanes, surely they'll just hold everyone up while they rank themselves according to speed and take up normal cycling position in the lane ?

When I'm cycling I very rarely bother filtering to the front. I'll get close enough to ensure I get through on the next green, but what's the point of pushing to the front just so the cars can overtake you again ?

What's that you say, traffic's slower in London ? ;-)

asprilla

The whole point of an ASL is that it allows cyclists to manoeuvre without getting caught up in the traffic light grand prix.

EKE_38BPM

Motorvehicles in ASLs really wind me up. They are there for a reason: the safety of cyclists.
I almost aways have a go at motorists in the ASL, even police.

EdB999 get out of it, its not for you (when you're using an engine)!

Back OT, I did loads of city cycling in my youth and then when I transferred to 4 wheels and an engine, my skills transferred too. I then transferred to 2 wheels and an engine and used everything I had learned along the way and added new skills.

I even drove a white van around central London (the biggest you can drive without a HGV licence) for a while and use the things I've learned to anticipate other road users (and peds) actions.
What wound me up when I was driving the van was getting dirty looks and gestures from cyclists even though I always gave them loads of time and space. I think they just automatically assume you're going to be a wanker and endanger their life.
Fair assumption, better safe than sorry. So I don't hold any grudges.

Anonymous

I used to ride motor bikes. Brought my first one a DT50 when I was 16, then had a DT125 (powervalue flipped upside down, couldn't afford the proper kit).

The had a few Honda and Kawasaki rat bikes in my early twenties as that's all I could afford insurance on.

I did work as a motorbike courier when I first moved to London about 9 years ago, had a accident when a old lady pulled out in front of me at a set of traffic lights. Was in hospital for a week with a dislocated hip and off work for a lot longer. I count this as a very lucky escape, I landed in a clear bit of road with nothing coming the other way. Could have been so much worse.

I can remember lying on the road and looking behind me and seeing a 205 with a smashed windscreen and bits of my bike spread all over the road and thinking "oh f*ck, this isn't a near miss", then lots of people leaning over, then very little. Until I woke up in hospital with my parents on one side and my girlfreind (who my parents had never met before) on the other.

I did get back on a bike after that, but to be honest I'd lost my nerve and didn't enjoy it any more.

I would like to think I'd get another bike one day, a R1 if I could afford the insurance.

d.n.f

since 91 8)

ar50
ns125f
rgv250
yzf600
zx6r
now on z750

I've always thought my motorcycling has made me a better road user in general, not just cycling.

Anonymous

With regards to ASLs, it dose make scene to have them shared by motorcyclists.

A motorbike, even a small engined one will take off from traffic lights a lot quicker than a car and is also a lot more vulnerable than a car, in the same way a cyclist is.

In the same way a cyclist doesn't want to positioned in between stationary traffic at lights neither dose a motorcyclists.

It makes scene to have provisions for them to have a place ahead of traffic. Both for themselves and other motorised traffic.

To me it also seems safer for cyclists to share the ASL with motorbikes.

Think about it. The lights go green the quickest thing off the mark is a motorbike, personally if I'm riding my bike I'd rather have the motorbikes either along side me, or even in front of me rather than coming at me from behind.

asprilla

So you are justifying the use of the ASL so that you can razz away from the lights without anyone impeding you. That sounds safer for cyclists.

In the mean time we have to put up with blocked access (motorcycles tend not to position themselves across the full width if an ASL and are a lot wider than bikes) and end up sucking on exhaust.

Nice. Obviously being a cyclist doesn't make everyone a better motorcyclist.

pshore

My tuppence ...

Both types of two wheelers are vulnerable but at the same time trying to filter. Before ASL, motorcycles would filter to the front and put themselves in front of the queue. For two reasons:

1) You can out accelerate the cars easily and this means you don't hold anyone up and nobody holds a grudge and endangers you. You get away from danger.

2) At the front of the queue is much safer than being alongside other traffic - you are taking the primary. Same for pedal cycles too, so much so inexperienced cyclists have been helped by getting a painted box.

Without ASL, I, on my motorcycle, pass the stop-line but wait before the pedestrian crossing.

With ASL, that safety space is taken. I could follow the letter of the law and not enter the ASL box, but it leaves me makes me more likely to be involved in an accident. I also lose some of my filtering advantage. Both of these reasons would stop me using my motorcycle and I would trade it for a car.

There is quite a simple solution. I hang to the back of the box where possible and leave room for others to get through. I don't mind if cyclists stop in front of me, in fact, I will help hold up the traffic until they are safely on their way then I can easily slip past. It works in Cambridge.

Phil.

PS, there are a few junctions here that are filled with cycles but by the time the lights go green you are on your own because all the cyclists go on the ped phase :-)

Anonymous

Asprilla wrote:

So you are justifying the use of the ASL so that you can razz away from the lights without anyone impeding you. That sounds safer for cyclists.

In the mean time we have to put up with blocked access (motorcycles tend not to position themselves across the full width if an ASL and are a lot wider than bikes) and end up sucking on exhaust.

Nice. Obviously being a cyclist doesn't make everyone a better motorcyclist.

For a start, not so I can "razz away from the lights", I don't ride motorbikes any more. It dose seem that having been a motorcyclist and cyclist (and car driver for that matter) has given me a more balanced view of using the road though.

But basically, yes, motorbikes are quicker away from the lights makes scene to have them along side or in front of you rather than try and filter through you.

The rest of your post is just pure speculation.

rf6

I've never lived or ridden (with or without motor) anywhere with ASLs so am speaking on principle only. ASLs are for cyclist, simple as. Motorcycles have enough power to negotiate traffic, without needing an extra few feet at the lights.

I believe (and may be wrong) that ASLs are there to allow cyclists the chance to turn right or left without being clipped or turned across by cars etc., so it should be left to them. They are there to stop people getting hurt, so should be respected.

<takes off rose tinted specs>

Beeblebrox

I've completed my theory and CBT, am doing a step up day and direct access course over the next few weeks.

I'm an aggressively defensive cyclist so I've found in the small amount of motorcycling I've done that style works well and seems to be what I'm taught. Stick to the middle and don't get pushed about.

As for ASLs, well, if moving into one is the safer option then bugger the law and the cyclists, I'm always going to go for the safer option.

Fireblade96

My "wouldn't it make more sense having ASLs for motorbikes" was a hypothetical question - there aren't any ASLs where I live so I've never given them much consideration before. I like to think I'm a polite and considerate road user, though not timid.

In the days before ASLs, motorbikes always filtered to the front, the first one stopping on the white line to get away before the cars, or maybe moving in front of the lead car to make way for other bikes.

Nowadays, should I (hypothetically) find a crossing with an ASL while out on my motorbike, I could perfectly legally filter to the front of the traffic but stop before the ASL as these are legally restricted to cyclists. That might mean that any cyclist filtering up behind me got blocked; but I can't let him through because I can't advance into the ASL box.

I could move carefully into the ASL area and let the cyclist through, but that's illegal.

I could just sit in line with the cars, but then what's the point of being on a bike ?

I don't have the answer, but I don't think that blaming everything on <insert least favourite class of road user> is constructive. We all have to share the road. The more people we encourage onto 2 wheels, - pedal- or motor- powered - the fewer cars there are, the less congestion, and we all get to work sooner.