Alberto's Tour Performance

claudb
claudb Posts: 212
edited October 2010 in Pro race
I've waded through most of the thread on AC's Positive but there's still one thing puzzling me. As I recall he was definitely NOT the dominating force at Le Tour that we had seen before. Indeed, during the race I sometimes thought that this was a guy who had doped in the past but was now struggling because he was NOT this year. OK, if he had taken Clenbuterol (by any means) to the degree that has been found then his performance would not have been enhanced BUT, if he'd had a transfusion, then would that not have had a noticeable effect ?? I'm still really not sure what to think about this positive test and the subsequent circus, but I can't help thinking that with the benefits of a transfusion we would not have seen him apparently struggling like never before. I include the following report from Cyclingnews about the final time trial which, I think confirms that he was not on his best form by any means -

"Contador's superiority not being as clear in the 2010 edition than previously, the 27-year-old Spaniard was relieved not to have failed. "There were a few days when I wasn't in my best form and that might be why I'm so emotional," he said. "Up to the last moment it was a very hard Tour."

Contador sealed his Tour victory with a 35th place on the stage, 5:43 down on stage winner Fabian Cancellara (Saxo Bank), where one had expected the yellow jersey wearer to do better taking into account his otherwise excellent capabilities against the clock. Perhaps fatigue and psychological pressure made Contador just a tad less competitive than in 2009 where he had won two stages, including the final time trial - which just proves the strain Schleck put on the multiple Grand Tour winner."

Comments

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    35th place on final TTsounds worse than it really was - the wind got up and none of the later starters did anything.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    edited October 2010
    Points I'd make:

    1. First up, I'm sitting on the fence on this whole affair

    2. Other riders may have transfused too.

    3. Transfusions don't make you immune to illness, they may even encourage it. Contador, at the time, said he had been a little under the weather. He looked it after the TT.

    4. By the time of the test he was in Yellow, so his plan would have been defensive (especially as a better TTer than Schleck).

    5. Sportsmen aren't robots. Sometimes they have good days, sometimes they have bad days. With nothing to explain it.

    6. 35th on the TT. The wind changed a lot. From memory, the only one of the top forty on GC to make the top ten was Wiggins, with Menchov doing a great ride for 11th.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    This is what I have also trouble with, he looked far from his form compared to -09, through the whole season this year actually.
    Sure he won races this year, but by far smaller margins than in the last couple of years.

    I'm a fanboy and enjoy watching him race, his ban will certainly diminish my interest in the GT's and stage races.

    Classics, can't wait.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Arkibal wrote:
    This is what I have also trouble with, he looked far from his form compared to -09, through the whole season this year actually.
    Sure he won races this year, but by far smaller margins than in the last couple of years.
    .

    Of his previous four GT victories, only the 2009 Tour was a comprehensive win. The other three were by less than a minute I believe.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    minefield.jpg

    You pre-suppose that he could have taken a transfusion and that nobody else did. If you want to run with the idea that he was cheating, then why not also think the same about Menchov, Schleck, Sanchez and more. It's just finger-pointing. People might have suspicions but that's all they are.

    This is what makes the current Contador case so interesting, namely that he's tested positive on two days for clenbuterol and the A and B samples confirm this. Now he claims to know the source of the doping product - a bad steak - and thanks to the foot and mouth scare and the policies introduced after it, we can track exactly where the meat came from.

    So it doesn't matter whether he was blood doping or not, it is now simply about proving where the clenbuterol came from.
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    RichN95 wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:
    This is what I have also trouble with, he looked far from his form compared to -09, through the whole season this year actually.
    Sure he won races this year, but by far smaller margins than in the last couple of years.
    .

    Of his previous four GT victories, only the 2009 Tour was a comprehensive win. The other three were by less than a minute I believe.

    That's why I said stage races as well....
  • pb21
    pb21 Posts: 2,171
    Maybe he was really suffering and would have come dead last in that TT if he didn't have a transfusion, if he did of course.
    Mañana
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Kléber wrote:
    minefield.jpg

    You pre-suppose that he could have taken a transfusion and that nobody else did. If you want to run with the idea that he was cheating, then why not also think the same about Menchov, Schleck, Sanchez and more. It's just finger-pointing. People might have suspicions but that's all they are.

    This is what makes the current Contador case so interesting, namely that he's tested positive on two days for clenbuterol and the A and B samples confirm this. Now he claims to know the source of the doping product - a bad steak - and thanks to the foot and mouth scare and the policies introduced after it, we can track exactly where the meat came from.

    So it doesn't matter whether he was blood doping or not, it is now simply about proving where the clenbuterol came from.

    I don't really mind the doping, I have no doubt they are all at it, I just like that a rider races for the win almost every time he takes part.

    Like I said, the races will be less interesting once he is banned, you can't argue that?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Arkibal wrote:
    That's why I said stage races as well....

    I know, and it's a fair point. I'm not really disagreeing with you. But there's a big difference between one week and three. Just ask Mick Rogers, for example.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Arkibal wrote:

    Like I said, the races will be less interesting once he is banned, you can't argue that?

    Duh! - Yeah I think you can. I'd actually like the strongest cyclist to win, rather than the guy who responds the best to doping products, or has the best medical program.

    Oh yeah, world peace too please :)
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    dougzz wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:

    Like I said, the races will be less interesting once he is banned, you can't argue that?

    Duh! - Yeah I think you can. I'd actually like the strongest cyclist to win, rather than the guy who responds the best to doping products, or has the best medical program.

    Oh yeah, world peace too please :)

    Good luck with that. :wink:
  • Stuey01
    Stuey01 Posts: 1,273
    The fact that he didn't blow away the opposition is not any kind of case for the defence. Perhaps he doped precisely because he was struggling? Not saying he did but that is just as feasible an explanation as saying he can't have doped because he didn't blow everyone away.
    Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur
  • Mettan
    Mettan Posts: 2,103
    Stuey01 wrote:
    The fact that he didn't blow away the opposition is not any kind of case for the defence. Perhaps he doped precisely because he was struggling? Not saying he did but that is just as feasible an explanation as saying he can't have doped because he didn't blow everyone away.

    + 1 - Agreed.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    claudb wrote:
    Indeed, during the race I sometimes thought that this was a guy who had doped in the past but was now struggling because he was NOT this year.

    I had the same thoughts when I was watching the Tour, particularly when Schleck seemed stronger in the mountains.

    Maybe he was just doping less because of improved controls. Or maybe Schleck is just a lot stronger than last year.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    On the rest day where the +ve came, all he had ahead of him to worry about was the Tourmalet. He was a few seconds ahead and knew he could handle the time trial. All he had to do was to stay with Schleck, who would be trying to put a couple of minutes into him. No need for an extraterrestrial ride.
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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,221
    johnfinch wrote:
    claudb wrote:
    Indeed, during the race I sometimes thought that this was a guy who had doped in the past but was now struggling because he was NOT this year.

    I had the same thoughts when I was watching the Tour, particularly when Schleck seemed stronger in the mountains.

    Maybe he was just doping less because of improved controls. Or maybe Schleck is just a lot stronger than last year.

    Or maybe Schleck has a better programme this year :wink:
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    On the rest day where the +ve came, all he had ahead of him to worry about was the Tourmalet. He was a few seconds ahead and knew he could handle the time trial. All he had to do was to stay with Schleck, who would be trying to put a couple of minutes into him. No need for an extraterrestrial ride.

    true but then Contador's style is to attack. We only really saw him do that once and once it failed he gave up and stayed on ANdy's wheel, that isn't really the Contador we know. Think back to the track stands earlier as well.

    For whatever reason he wasn't the same attacking rider he has been in the past. I think the fact Andy was so close in the final TT shows Contador actually had a bad ride and slipped back to his level rather than Andy improved. We know Contador said he had a stomach upset during the final ITT but what about the other days.
  • guinea
    guinea Posts: 1,177
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    On the rest day where the +ve came, all he had ahead of him to worry about was the Tourmalet. He was a few seconds ahead and knew he could handle the time trial. All he had to do was to stay with Schleck, who would be trying to put a couple of minutes into him. No need for an extraterrestrial ride.

    All fine but...

    We now know he was juiced, and he only just hung on in there wih Schleck.

    Who know how much time he would have lost if he was clean.
  • oscarbudgie
    oscarbudgie Posts: 850
    Contador's transfusion would have been quite limited - a big jump in his Hb levels would have set alarms ringing. I'd imagine he had just enough to make a rise in his blood values look plausible - but after 3 weeks of the Tour when everyone is knackered I guess even getting up to 'normal' levels would give you either an advantage or at least enough to help you defend your position. Marginal gains.

    j3-Tony-Hancock.jpg
    Cannondale Supersix / CAAD9 / Boardman 9.0 / Benotto 3000
  • attica
    attica Posts: 2,362
    Didn't Landis dope because he'd had a bad day?

    AC was definitely worried about keeping yellow, otherwise we wouldn't have seen so much emotion at the end of the TT. Perhaps Andy Schleck simply played better mind games this year. Whatever, the net result was a Contador who was very much looking over his shoulder, stressful times can lead to desperate measures.
    "Impressive break"

    "Thanks...

    ...I can taste blood"
  • Gingerflash
    Gingerflash Posts: 239
    He'll have been quite worried about the prospect of racing Schleck on the Tourmalet. If he'd lost a couple of minutes there and was feeling out of sorts as well, he might have struggled to take that time back in the TT.

    MAYBE a small transfusion to push his HCt up just a little was all he needed to limit any losses on the Tourmalet.

    I really don't think his performance proves his innocence any more than it proves his guilt.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,559
    guinea wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    On the rest day where the +ve came, all he had ahead of him to worry about was the Tourmalet. He was a few seconds ahead and knew he could handle the time trial. All he had to do was to stay with Schleck, who would be trying to put a couple of minutes into him. No need for an extraterrestrial ride.

    All fine but...

    We now know he was juiced, and he only just hung on in there wih Schleck.

    Who know how much time he would have lost if he was clean.

    Sorry, didn't put it all that well, but that was pretty much my point. Quick transfusion on the rest day to make sure he hangs in with Schleck on the Tourmalet, then hope to give a good TT.
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  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    I'm not saying he doped but not being able to dominate like usual seems like a very strong motivator for a pro athlete to dope in the middle of a race, don't you think?
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    donrhummy wrote:
    I'm not saying he doped but not being able to dominate like usual seems like a very strong motivator for a pro athlete to dope in the middle of a race, don't you think?


    You're assuming that he hadn't doped in the past and this wasn't just part of his regular program.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    donrhummy wrote:
    I'm not saying he doped but not being able to dominate like usual seems like a very strong motivator for a pro athlete to dope in the middle of a race, don't you think?

    Perhaps. If that was the case, it was handy that he had a bag of his own blood ready for just such an emergency.
    Twitter: @RichN95

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