muscle strength = Protein?

Logic

Hi,

Iv only just started riding and the main thing i notice so far is that im slow and my muscles burn like mad even after only 10miles.

My thought is that it is early days and im sur ewith each ride il improve which is easy and obvious to understand but i was wondering whether people use or have used any protein supplements to help build lean muscle and help to repair muscles after rides.

I know the energy side of recovery is a different story and im not to concerned about that right now as i just aint going far enough to "bonk" right now, its just a help to increase muscle strength im interested in.

cheers

gkerr4

"i've only just started riding..."

thats the catch here - it'll develop and yes it stings at first - especially if you are trying to set a pace!

Well done for getting into it tho.

Personally, I believe amino acids and possibly protein supplements DO have a place in a cyclist diet - in any athletes diet for that matter. But it is worth looking at your overall diet first too - no good necking the protein shakes if they are washing down a couple of big macs a day you know...

for reference, I get my protein from myprotein.com as it works out great value - the branded stuff aimed at the body builders market seems over-hyped and overpriced IMO (i have no linkt to them btw)

Logic

Current food intake is probably like most who work hard and play hard - i eat as healthy as posible but there are a couple of days in the week when it slips lol.

Im pushing the pace as hard as i can with sense for now and averaging 15-17 mph for the small 10-13 miles rides i can manage for now -

just really wondering what most people use as recovery really - www.myprotein.co.uk looks a good site, cheers for that 1

gkerr4

in that case then - I use the std whey protein shakes - tend to use them after a gym session or after a partic long ride. I do think they help, might be in the head. That said, I cycle for fitness and I work in the gym too - my ideal figure is not that of your average pro-cyclist! - I don't aspire to be 8st!

you need to keep the total calories in count if you are supplementing with shakes - reduce elsewhere to keep your intake at what it should be and this will raise your % of KCal from protein.

Logic

thanks for the great advice gkerr4 - im mainly cycling for fitness and enjoyment but i would like to do a couple of sportives next year without getting too embarrassed lol.

racingt

Whey protein helps repair the damage caused to the protein in the muscle when it exercise, therefore it's good for recovery. I've tested it personally in the Alps and Pyrenees, recovering very night and feeling like you have new legs in the morning. Then on the last day, not taking it, and hobbling till lunchtime. Not very scientific, but it worked to persuade me!
Well done for starting, best also make sure you are warming up properly.
Cheers!!

amaferanga

Protein supplements after a 10 mile ride, seriously?

Just ride your bike and eat a normal healthy diet and you'll get fitter and stronger.

gkerr4

amaferanga wrote:

Protein supplements after a 10 mile ride, seriously?

Just ride your bike and eat a normal healthy diet and you'll get fitter and stronger.

thats as may be - but his body will be making some serious adjustments in these early days of training - muscle growth + new blood vessels - protein plays a part in these changes.

Logic

I may sound weak i suppose but i did 13 miles yesterday and only 7.5 today but my legs are still feeling in need of recovery 12hours later, i just want to see if people use supplements and if so which ones - so far myprotein.co.uk is looking winner as got lots of good stuff in it for the price.

start as you mean to go on is how im looking at it.
cheers for the support gkerr4

acebobby

I'm new to cycling too, I would suggest instead of doing short distances as fast as you can try to get some miles into your legs. go longer runs and enjoy them and try to get some hills in there to, your legs adapt quite quickly I find!

vanguard09

Im new to road cycling as well, I bought my first road bike at the end of August just gone, and I have just completed my first 90 mile sportive. When I first started I was knackered over a 26 mile training ride, with burning legs, aching back etc, but I just persisted, put in the hours, put in the miles, ate right, slept right etc and I completed the 90 miles feeling surisingly strong!

So it just goes to show, if you put down the hard miles, and sort your diet out, you will be fine!!

Logic

Well done vanguard - bet that feels good.

i feel people are kind of looking down on this post - Im not a wimp i was merely asking the question. Im not after a miracle and i'l be putting in the hard work thats for sure. Im cycling for the fun of it and not to compeat ( well only with myself )

I just thought that rather than struggling on sometimes there is a better way and eating right and training go without saying but if sopmething like protein supplements can give the edge of improving quicker by slowing down the breakdown of muscles and helping to repair them quicker then that must be a good thing. SKY are sponcered by CNP and must use the stuff surely?

But its only really a thought while my leg muscles are developing.

zummerzet-lou

Sounds to me like you're trying to do too much, too soon.

Aim to have every other day off for recovery - maybe have 2 days off. If you are aiming for 3 cycle training sessions a week only 1 of those sessions should be hard and fast. The others should be at an easier pace - perhaps aiming for time in the saddle rather than speed.

For the distances you're doing now, you probably don't need to concern yourself with supplements etc, lots og water should suffice - and don't forget the enjoy!

vorsprung

A normal diet contains enough protein to ensure you recover from rides
It is more important to recovery to get plenty of carbohydrates in after riding
Mind you, if you are only doing ten miles then I would imagine that "plenty" is not that much

This webpage has lots of sensible information on it

http://www.cptips.com/protein.htm

Cycling is not body building. It is not desirable to put on lots of muscle mass

gkerr4

vorsprung wrote:

A normal diet contains enough protein to ensure you recover from rides
It is more important to recovery to get plenty of carbohydrates in after riding
Mind you, if you are only doing ten miles then I would imagine that "plenty" is not that much

This webpage has lots of sensible information on it

http://www.cptips.com/protein.htm

Cycling is not body building. It is not desirable to put on lots of muscle mass

I don;t agree - I would imagine that there are a lot of cyclists who do not eat enough protein because they are not consiously trying to eat enough.

Also - you say it is not desirable for cyclists to put on muslce mass - again the OP said he is training for fitness so who is to say it isn't desireable for the OP (or me, for that matter) - who wants to look like a weedy-contador? not me!

vorsprung

gkerr4 wrote:

I would imagine that there are a lot of cyclists who do not eat enough protein because they are not consiously trying to eat enough.

Sure, I agree that it is possible that a persons diet could potentially not contain enough protein. Earlier in the year I examined my own diet as I was training heavily. I was eating stuff like porridge for breakfast and meat and two veg for evening meal. I was not consciously trying to pack in the protein, in fact I was favouring carbohydrate. But the coincidental protein in all the foods I ate was more than enough to get up to the basic level of gramme per Kg body weight.
This was just normal food. If the OP does the same exercise and discovers he is down on protein then he could just drink more milk...there is no need for special whey protein mix stuff

Also - you say it is not desirable for cyclists to put on muslce mass - again the OP said he is training for fitness so who is to say it isn't desireable for the OP (or me, for that matter) - who wants to look like a weedy-contador? not me!

I think we both agree that we don't particularly want to look like a pro climber

However, cycling is an aerobic sport. It is more important to work on the engine - your cardiovascular system - than developing tree trunk like arms and legs

Chris Hoy looks like a brick outhouse because he is a specialist sprinter, ordinary cyclists don't need this sort of muscular development. And that is the reason that body builders take protein supplements

The reason I am bothering to emphasise this point is that there is a giant industry selling protein supplements. It is difficult to find accurate information on the topic. I recommend Anita Beans book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide- ... 073&sr=1-1

gkerr4

^^ Completely agree with the vast majority of your points! - and interesting that you did an analysis and found you were getting enough protein - you sound like you know a fair bit about nutrition and your own body - I also really like the anita bean books!

I guess it is what you are training for that matters here though - personally I ride for fitness - to keep the middle aged spread at bay (like a lot on here I would imagine) but also do a bit of work in the gym -believe me, if I could develop a build like chris hoys then I would jump at it! - and if it made me a "worse" cyclist then so be it! - I guess the OP needs to make that choice for himself (herself?)

Butterd2

I think the answer is you really don't have to but it won't hurt if you want to try.

I rode across the Pyrenees this year and used a "Goodness Shakes" recovery drink each night. These IIRC were 33% protein 67% Carbs.
Did they help? I'll never really know but doing 60-100 mile days with big climbs back to back it thought it was worth a try.
I'd only do it for recovery purposes though (i.e. I have another big ride the next day) not for trying to build muscle.

I used to use Cyclone when I was playing rugby and doing weights, it works but I ended up bloody heavy (good for rugby bad for hill climbing). More important to eat healthy and work on your aerobic engine.

Eyon

As an ex gym obsessive (until i tore my left tricep and cant seem to get it right again), protein has a positive impact on strength and muscle tone. However I cannot seeing it being as necessary on the saddle.

Put it this way, my gym training was purely for vanity reasons and thus was all based around strength, I ended up squatting 3 sets of 10 at 160kg with relative ease, and therefore my legs grew strong. my first experience on a bike, i hopped on, cycled away and had no issues with sharp acceleration or the beginnings of hills, my legs would power through it no issue. However, after a given amount of time, my legs would just be burning and nearly seizing up with the amount of lactic acid flooding into them from exhaustion.

Why? My legs were strength trained, and not stamina trained! The muscles weren't being damaged (like in weight training where they are slightly, and repair back larger and stronger), therefore technically they do not need the protein to help them repair. What they need is a different supplement to help recover the muscles faster from the buildup of lactic acid.

So to get good at cycling, you need to build up the stamina of your legs, not so much the strength. of course the two go hand in hand, but where as protein will help with the strength, i dont believe it will be helping with your stamina.

Now, I'm no sports scientist, or a very good cyclist, or very good in the gym, but from my personal experience, i dont believe large amounts of protein will help, and i have no idea what supplement to use if you want to use one.

No harm in eating lots of meat though, I think that will give you the sort of levels needed for cycling, not so much the supplements

Oh, and I also get my supplements from myprotein, great shop!

Ian

blackhands

If you can get yourself up out of a chair your leg muscles are strong enough for cycling. The forces involved are very small indeed - especially for road riding. What you need is the endurance to use these forces many times. 3 x 10 = 30 reps, what you would expect to do in 20 secs cycling - a one hour ride would involve 6,000 reps.

Also forget all about "lactic acid". There is thinking now that it doesn't actually exist. Also research has found that the lactate found after a long ride would disappear with a 10 min slow warmdown ride at say 10mph.

Finally, I agree that extra protein probably isn't necessary if you have a decent balanced diet.
For some good insights into the "nutrition industry" have a look at the book Bad Science by Dr Ben Goldacre.

Eyon

like i said blackhands im no scientist, i had no idea lactic acid was a thing of the past.

If you read my post i was stating the difference between 30 reps of large weight where protein is a valuable supplement in comparison to cycling where that training became largely useless and it was a stamina type of training that is needed, where the muscles are being used in a different way in which protein would not be required.

I would be interested what could be taken to reduce muscle recovery times without adding excess bulk and weight though.

blackhands

I didn't say that lactic acid was a thing of the past, what I said was that its existance as a result of anaerobic metabolism is being questioned. Going back to elementary chemistry, an acid consists of a positively charged hyrdogen ion and a negatively charged part. For example, hydrochloric acid is H+Cl- and lactic acid is H+La- . When researchers first investigated what happens in muscles they discovered both Lactate (La-) and Hydrogen ions (H+) so putting one and one together ther said "Aha" this is lactic acid and because we feel a burning sensation in our muscles it must be caused by this acid. Some people now believ that the lactate (resulting from incomplete breakdown of glucose) and th ehydrogen ions have different origins and are only coincidentally found at the same time I'm not sure how far this research has gone or if it is still

Its a nice story to say that my legs are burning it must be lactic acid But, in reality the lactate which is only partially broken down glucose is a valuable substrate which the body can reuse as a fuel - it is not a waste product. Lactate certainly doesn't stay around for long and will be removed from the bloodstream (ie after it has moved from the muscle) within a few minutes.

AS for what to take to reduce soreness - I would suggest rest.

mattward1979

blackhands wrote:

I didn't say that lactic acid was a thing of the past, what I said was that its existance as a result of anaerobic metabolism is being questioned. Going back to elementary chemistry, an acid consists of a positively charged hyrdogen ion and a negatively charged part. For example, hydrochloric acid is H+Cl- and lactic acid is H+La- . When researchers first investigated what happens in muscles they discovered both Lactate (La-) and Hydrogen ions (H+) so putting one and one together ther said "Aha" this is lactic acid and because we feel a burning sensation in our muscles it must be caused by this acid. Some people now believ that the lactate (resulting from incomplete breakdown of glucose) and th ehydrogen ions have different origins and are only coincidentally found at the same time I'm not sure how far this research has gone or if it is still

Its a nice story to say that my legs are burning it must be lactic acid But, in reality the lactate which is only partially broken down glucose is a valuable substrate which the body can reuse as a fuel - it is not a waste product. Lactate certainly doesn't stay around for long and will be removed from the bloodstream (ie after it has moved from the muscle) within a few minutes.

AS for what to take to reduce soreness - I would suggest rest.

The science is lovely, but:

Move legs a lot => they hurt.
Stop moving legs => pain stops
Move legs more often (training) => pain buildup decreases given the same training time

Regardless of the scientific and biological principals involved, there are given absolutes that hold true through scrutiny no matter if you think that evil demons are punishing your legs for using up natures resources....

If eating/Drinking wacky amounts of protien doesnt help, it wont hurt either. I would rather saturate my body with protein over fats or carbs that wont get used and eventually stored.