Legal question employment

dilemna

To any employment legal eagles.................

My last employer is claiming I owe them £79. If I don't pay up within 7 days they will start legal proceedings to recover the sum. I should imagine they would claim costs further increasing what I would owe them.

My job with them only lasted for 4 weeks as they decided to get rid of me on a list of trumped up spurious grounds. I left on 13/08/2010 in humiliating circumstances. I was paid for the month I had worked plus one week's notice by bank transfer on 25/08/2010. They eventually sent a letter to me confirming termination of contract, payslip and P45 during the second week of september.

As far as I can see scrutinising my payslip, it is correct, however their payslips are quite complicated. Having only worked 1 month this is the only one of theirs I have seen. In the letter confirming termination of contract there was no explanation of actual sums I would receive in settlement. I was merely told on day I left that I would be paid for 4 weeks and recieve one additional week as notice. I have managed to make rough calculations based on what was my annual salary what my pay should have been, also taking into account accrued A/L. From these calcualtions pay slip appears correct.

So my questions are is this just a threatening letter based on their error as I believe the monies I have received from them are correct?

Presumably to obtain judgement in court they would have to commence proceedings and would have to submit adequate evidence of what they are claiming from me. Their threatening letter demanding re-payment and accompanying break down of figures show they over paid me £78.79 but no explanation as to how or why, so I am none the wiser and very worried.

Also if an employer makes a mistake in payment of salary which is THEIR FAULT can they legally recover it even after they have terminated the contract? If so how long after? I received my first and last payment from them on 25/08/2010. The sum was paid into my bank account by bank transfer. I believed the sum to be correct which was then confirmed by my pay slip. It would also mean my P45 is incorrect. Aggghhhhhh!!!!!

Also is an employer expected to have a duty of care to exercise reasonable care and skill in calculating their employee's wages? I beleive that the sum they are now demanding from me is incorrect, but how do I dispute it?

Surely they would have to apply to an employment tribunal where there are strict time limits?

I have been unable to find another job yet so am claiming job seekers allowance. I have very little money. I therefore cannot repay them.

They menacingly state that if I will experience difficulty repaying the amount to consult the NationaDebtHelpline !!!!!

Would the company pass it to a debt collection agency as these people are bastards who will rack up hundreds of pounds in costs and the debt could rapidly grow.

The company I worked for was a huge global multi-national logistics company.

Any advice gratefully received.

redvee

Have they stated why you allegedly owe them the money? Seven days seems too short a time period to repay the amount, I'd guess they are assuming that you don't have to spend money on living expenses etc and still have the money in your bank account. Involvement of a debt collection agency may happen if you fail to keep to any repaymant plan you set up with the company but in my experience of DCAs they only collect the debt by buying the debt from the company, no extra monies were added to my debts.

dilemna

redvee wrote:

Have they stated why you allegedly owe them the money? Seven days seems too short a time period to repay the amount, I'd guess they are assuming that you don't have to spend money on living expenses etc and still have the money in your bank account. Involvement of a debt collection agency may happen if you fail to keep to any repaymant plan you set up with the company but in my experience of DCAs they only collect the debt by buying the debt from the company, no extra monies were added to my debts.

They have provided an Excel type spreadsheet which details sums they claim I have been paid. Some of these correspond to my payslip but a couple of other are different - shift allowance but no explanation why. I have checked my contract and my start letter which both clearly state the shift allowance and percentage uplift. Using these figures the payment I have already received from them as given in my payslip is correct. There is no explanation from then as to WHY they think their new figure is correct and the exisitng one is wrong.

I thought a company could only pass a debt onto a debt collection agency if they had gained judgement or if the debt was undisputed. I dispute what they are now claiming from me. As this is an employment monies issue it is my impression that the correct place for them to bring proceedings would be an employment tribunal not the small claims court or county court. Anyway in the small claims court they would be unable to recover costs and I think the amount is too small to bring an action in the county court. I don't know that is why I post in the hope that any legal eagles can offer assistance.

Maybe I try CAB on monday.

finchy

If they overpay you then they can claim it back.

There's absolutely no harm, though, in going in to see them, and asking them to talk you through their sums. The National Debt Helpline might not be a threat, but some helpful advice.

Are you in a position to pay the money back?

john-e-big-guns

Seal the letter back in the envelope...and lable "Not known at this address"...or no longer at this address and left no forwarding address.....in other words 'F**k'um

Homer J

citizens advice might be a place to start

Weejie54

I reckon they don't have much chance of recovering anything. Especially if you have spent it. If they led you to believe that the payments they made were correct at the time they were paid (before they later claimed that they overpaid you) and you believed it to be rightfully yours, then there was an assumption on both sides that this money was due to you. They cannot change their minds and recover any sums without the other party (you) potentially being able to claim damages. This is known as the principle of estoppel.

Tell them you've spent all the money they paid you and ask again for a clearer explanation of why they think there was an overpayment. Also tell them that you have no intention of consulting a debt helpline, and that any spread payments would be negotiated between you and them. However, what they paid you tallied with what they said they would pay you, and you've now spent those wages. Suggest that they stop threatening you and play ball or you'll see them in court.

Mr_Cellophane

dilemna wrote:

I believe that the sum they are now demanding from me is incorrect, but how do I dispute it?

That is an easy question, write to them (signed of) and ask them for a detailed breakdown of what your pay should have been and why you received too much. Put the next move back to them. It should give you a week or two to talk to the CAB.
If you were still working for them and had been over paid then you are legal obliged to repay it at a rate reasonable to both sides. I would assume that the same applies to your case.

dilemna

john-e-big-guns wrote:

Seal the letter back in the envelope...and lable "Not known at this address"...or no longer at this address and left no forwarding address.....in other words 'F**k'um

Unfortunately they sent it recorded delivery and I signed for it this morning having no idea of the contents of the letter within.

dilemna

johnfinch wrote:

If they overpay you then they can claim it back.

There's absolutely no harm, though, in going in to see them, and asking them to talk you through their sums. The National Debt Helpline might not be a threat, but some helpful advice.

Are you in a position to pay the money back?

Errr ........ no, but I don't believe I owe them anything.

They may or may not be able to claim it back. I have a feeling there is case law where an employer who makes a mistake in paying monies to departing/former employees ie over payment has to shoulder their financial loss as it was their mistake. Indeed as you suggest I would have to pay it back if I were still working for them as I would be liable to them as a term of my employment contract, but they terminated it and paid me what I was owed. They then sent my payslip confirming the amount they paid me which I agree with.

I don't think the National DebtLine is friendly advice. At best it's a flippin' cheek and at worst harrassment.

I need some legal advice. If some one is able to offer basic advice that would be great. I am more than happy to do this by this by PM if that would be preferrable. Obviously it would be in confidence.

keith1200rs

I think you should try the CAB, not here. They are skilled at helping with such problems and much worse.

Keith

Weejie54

The CAB or a lawyer would obviously be advantageous.

If you go to the CAB, explain your situation with main points:

Employer made representation which you relied upon (to your detriment) - Payslip and P45.

There has been a change of position - You no longer have the money (it was spent before you were aware of the alleged error) and it would cause hardship for you to pay it back.

The mistake (if any) was wholly on the part of the (payer) employer, there being no false representation on your part.

If a debt collection agency contacts you, tell them it's in dispute. If they continue to harass you, they are breaking the OFT Debt Collection Guidance rules.

If this happened to me, I would contact the employers and tell them to sing for it.

They may have made a mistake, but they are going about it the wrong way.

Anonymous

Seems a bit petty on their part.

If they're a multinational company £79 is bugger all to them, and they paid it to you, so it has to be their mistake.

I'd imagine they're just trying their luck, I'd be tempted just to ignore them. But I'm no expert so that's probably the wrong advice.

dilemna

Thanks every one for your advice. I shall get some legal advice this week. I shall not be writing a cheque for the said amount as they suggest I do within 7 days.

dilemna

Weejie54 wrote:

The CAB or a lawyer would obviously be advantageous.

If you go to the CAB, explain your situation with main points:

Employer made representation which you relied upon (to your detriment) - Payslip and P45.

There has been a change of position - You no longer have the money (it was spent before you were aware of the alleged error) and it would cause hardship for you to pay it back.

The mistake (if any) was wholly on the part of the (payer) employer, there being no false representation on your part.

If a debt collection agency contacts you, tell them it's in dispute. If they continue to harass you, they are breaking the OFT Debt Collection Guidance rules.

If this happened to me, I would contact the employers and tell them to sing for it.

They may have made a mistake, but they are going about it the wrong way.

That's pretty much my view although I believe there IS no error so no re-imbursement is necessary. They have certainly not made the case that the pay I have received is wrong. Anyway your view clearly suggests it would inequitable for them to now pursue me, although as I say I believe there is no error. I think some numpty in their payroll offices has since made an error and has sent what they believe to be an outstanding sum to their debt recovery team.

Zachariah

Go to the CAB first thing Monday and bring everything you can in terms of paperwork. They should be able to tell you what your options are, and it won't cost you a penny to find out.

Whatever you do, do not delay or try and ignore it in the hope it goes away. It won't, and will come back to bite you in the future if not sorted.

Maintain an emotionless, businesslike tone at all times with all forms of your communication with this company.

beverick

Basically, if your ex-employer can prove that you owe the money, even if it's at their error, then you are obliged to repay it.

In my experience, I'd have said that entering into dialogue with your previous employer should at the very least delay any potential legal proceedings against you. Also, if you have entered into reasonable dialogue it will be in your favour should the case ever get to court - even (and I'd have said especially) if the eventual finding is against you.

I'd press them hard to prove their case whilst providing your own evidence to support your assertion that you don't owe anything. At the very least, get them to show where the mistake is and show how it happened. Again, assuming that your argument is not flippant (ie "as they made a mistake I don't owe anything") this would work in your favour.

Assuming that, at some point prior to a court order being issued against you, you agree that monies are outstanding make an offer to repay the monies on your terms and stating why you think your offer is reasonable (again avoid being flippant).

In most cases the employee will accept the terms but just remember that, at the point you both agree to the terms, you have entered into a legal contract.

nb, Depending to what extent you could reasoably have known you'd been overpaid you should be able to repay it over an extended period of time.

If you go to court you'll still be able to argue the same hardship and your more likley to get a finding in your favour if you have been seen to co-operate.

Bob

Weejie54

Basically, if your ex-employer can prove that you owe the money, even if it's at their error, then you are obliged to repay it.

Not quite how it goes. There is a right to recover sums paid by mistake "subject to estoppel".
In this instance (if there has been an overpayment), the ground for estoppel is pretty sound.
The right boxes can be ticked. The last thing that should be done in this case is an offer of repayment.

ConsciousPilot

RichardSwt wrote:

Seems a bit petty on their part.

If they're a multinational company £79 is bugger all to them, and they paid it to you, so it has to be their mistake.

+1 However you should definitely talk to HR and try to sort it out in an amicable manner

dilemna

Update.

I went to the CAB today (monday) and they told me I needed to make an appointment for a "Gateway" interview where all my details will be taken and then a further appointment scheduled to discuss the issue .................. Seems like this could be a lengthy process and I don't have a lot of time. So I shall return again to the CAB tomorrow morning and hopefully they can give me some advice. I shall have in mind the points raised here.

PBo

from employment tribunal website...

"We also deal with a range of claims relating to wages and other payments. You can get a full list, called a jurisdiction list, from any local tribunal office or the Employment Tribunals public enquiry line on 0845 795 9775.

If you are not sure that your claim is something that an Employment Tribunal can deal with, contact the public enquiry line or ACAS (on 08457 47 47 47 which is open from 0800 to 2000 Monday–Friday and 0900 to 1300 on Saturday)"

neiltb

Its 80 quid, a lot to you and if they do well, bugger all to them. They will have their accountant working on thiis, write to them, ask for a detailed statement of how they calculated what they paid you, what they reckon they should have paid you and a report to outline the discrepancies.

ask for management sign off that the numbers are correct. Then ask to meet the HR and the person who did the sums (after a few days ti digest the figures) to review them.

Even if you have to pay it, do it by installments requiring paperwork on their account regularly.

Make them earn it, if it looks like it will cost them too much to recover, they'll likely let it slide.

dilemna

CAB have pretty much advised what has been said above.

Payment was made, pay slip issued and then P45. There was every indication that my pay was correct. I have since relied on this and my financial position has changed such that I cannot repay it. The Company have given no indication why they now say the original payslip and amount they paid me is now wrong. Whilst we tried to identify the reason and we thought we had it at one point, there could be several. We are not payroll experts. It is for the Company to make the case not for me to help them do so.

CAB have advised writing a letter reflecting this advice.

CAB also said the letter was a standard blunt letter and the Company was very unlikely to go to court or tribunal to recover the £80 as the costs in doing so would be very much more than the amount they are claiming.

Weejie54

Great news. You can topple with the prospect of estoppel.

SteveR_100Milers

You should try advising the HMRC that they have made a £2K assessment incorrectly in their favour....