Rockshox MC 3.3 rear shock
Comments
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Warranty is subcontracted to the component manufacturer, just as in the car business. Toyota don't pay for failed accelerator switches to be replaced, the switch manufacturer does. It works the same with bike manufacturers.
It is this precise supply method that has brought up the quality of components in all the products around us.
Quality and cost directly related? Something that you buy in an LBS for £400 costs around £50-£100 to make. The manufacturer will add another £50-100 to his material and labour costs to cover overheads and marketing costs, the importer/distributor will add 50%-100% and the LBS will double the price that he buys it for. Bike manufacturers pay pretty much the same as the importer does, sometimes less if the volumes are big enough. If you decide, as a manufacturer, to subsidise a product to gain market penetration, a £20 subsidy makes an enormous difference to the price tag that the customer sees. The only things directly related are brand perception and cost.
Yeehaa, I may be older than you as I can remember when no one made an air shock that would last more than a week without being pumped up again, or last more than hand full of rides without needing some work. Rockshox were no exception and Fox definitely took the lead on reliability.
Spesh aside with their Expert range, manufacturers fit stock shock units. They are not valved specifically for this frame or that.
Fanboy? I am always a fan of good kit, in any sport.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
yeehaamcgee wrote:Bar Shaker wrote:
Again, a load of crap. Fox (and rockshox) work with bike designers to make sure the shock and the frame work in harmony. What works on one frame won't necesarily work on another.The Fox rears are quite a linear damper. The resistance is progressive and whereas the RS units feel very plush over small surface textures but load up nicely when cornering. Then, when you hit something really big, the high speed damping takes over and it soaks up the lump like it wasn't there. My RS felt better 'out of the box'/un set up, than the best I could get out of Fox units (albeit, low to mid spec ones).
TFTuned also offer a service to set the shock up to whatever bike you're fitting it to fir this reason.
You can't get any better examples of Fox and RS working with the manufacturer when the Specialized Brain shock and alike are developed with Fox and as Trek are next door to the Fox factory and design centre !!!
His little retorts do bring a smaile to my face !!0 -
Air shocks only became properly reliable recently, although the first genuinely popular air suspension I can remember was the first SID, by rockshox.Bar Shaker wrote:Yeehaa, I may be older than you as I can remember when no one made an air shock that would last more than a week without being pumped up again, or last more than hand full of rides without needing some work. Rockshox were no exception and Fox definitely took the lead on reliability.
I'm talking about RS way back int the days of elastomer spring and damping units.0 -
Bar Shaker wrote:Warranty is subcontracted to the component manufacturer, just as in the car business. Toyota don't pay for failed accelerator switches to be replaced, the switch manufacturer does. It works the same with bike manufacturers.
It is this precise supply method that has brought up the quality of components in all the products around us.
Quality and cost directly related? Something that you buy in an LBS for £400 costs around £50-£100 to make. The manufacturer will add another £50-100 to his material and labour costs to cover overheads and marketing costs, the importer/distributor will add 50%-100% and the LBS will double the price that he buys it for. Bike manufacturers pay pretty much the same as the importer does, sometimes less if the volumes are big enough. If you decide, as a manufacturer, to subsidise a product to gain market penetration, a £20 subsidy makes an enormous difference to the price tag that the customer sees. The only things directly related are brand perception and cost.
Ref your warranty statement...your wrong again....if you buy a bike or a car your contract is with the seller, be it a franchised dealer, LBS, or the likes of the Giant and Specialized store....so the OEM will allways put the best quality parts on that creates customer value as it is thier brand image that will suffer..if a part goes wrong on your car...you go mad with VW and the dealer not Hella or Bosch etc !! The dealer gets his refund for the part but labour and overheads are paid for by them so they loose out...hence my reference for pound for pound reliability....
As for this "It is this precise supply method that has brought up the quality of components in all the products around us" again why don't we see more RS cans then ????
I also did not know your were some type of import specialist knowing the markup on various items ?? and where I was talking about quality vs costs.....it was more aimed at using quality materials and robust processes in manufacturing to ensure process stability...the right part everytime with zero defects...this lowers your internal costs and ensures little rework or warranty claims....with regards to your suggestion that for something with a retail of £400 cost £50 to make......I would like you to come and run my supply chain as you would make me a very rich man.....0 -
Pudseyp wrote:You can't get any better examples of Fox and RS working with the manufacturer when the Specialized Brain shock and alike are developed with Fox and as Trek are next door to the Fox factory and design centre !!!
His little retorts do bring a smaile to my face !!
Please read para 5 of my post above.
Does Fox Brain (found on the Expert bikes) actually work now? The Brain suspension aside, its impossible to design suspension to match a bike as all that gets f**ed up the minute you give the customer a shock pump. Its 8 years since I worked in suspension design (cars - not bikes) but there are 4 things you can set and three of them are determined by the first... Spring rate comes first. Next is compression rate, rebound rate and then (on high end units) high speed compression rates. On a decent rear shock, all of these are adjustable to suit rider weight, rider preference and trail conditions, with the exception of the high speed compression rate.
HTF has any shock with full 3 way adjustment (spring/comp/rebound) been tuned to the bike frame?
And you call me a fanboy?
Feel free to disagree by posting contradicting facts, but don't accuse me of talking bollox/crap and then sit there grinning, with no back up.Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
Ask Tim Flooks about setting up shocks for differeng bikes.
Custom valved shocks are quite commonplace on mountain bikes, far far more than on cars.
Bike suspension linkages have varying compression rates, and the shock needs to work with this. There is often a two-way conversation between the suspension designer and the shock manufacturer to achieve this.
The shock can ramp up damping or spring rate towards the end of it's travel, and they may also have an optimum amount of low-speed compression dialled in.0 -
Err...all my posts in this thread have been based on fact....you were the one quoting reports on failures and alike....
Anyway a quick summary as I am getting bored of you now:
Fox and Rockshox make rear cans.....however Fox (lookng as what is standard equipment on the premium brands) probably outsell RS 10 times over....as to why that is, the people on Bike Radar can come to their own conclusions....
And back to the OP....yes I would still buy a second hand rear shock0 -
Pudseyp wrote:
Ref your warranty statement...your wrong again....if you buy a bike or a car your contract is with the seller, be it a franchised dealer, LBS, or the likes of the Giant and Specialized store....so the OEM will allways put the best quality parts on that creates customer value as it is thier brand image that will suffer..if a part goes wrong on your car...you go mad with VW and the dealer not Hella or Bosch etc !! The dealer gets his refund for the part but labour and overheads are paid for by them so they loose out...hence my reference for pound for pound reliability....
As for this "It is this precise supply method that has brought up the quality of components in all the products around us" again why don't we see more RS cans then ????
I also did not know your were some type of import specialist knowing the markup on various items ?? and where I was talking about quality vs costs.....it was more aimed at using quality materials and robust processes in manufacturing to ensure process stability...the right part everytime with zero defects...this lowers your internal costs and ensures little rework or warranty claims....with regards to your suggestion that for something with a retail of £400 cost £50 to make......I would like you to come and run my supply chain as you would make me a very rich man.....
I spent 7 years exporting competition car parts around the world to territory distributors who then ran their own retail networks. I also imported and supplied UK car manufacturers (Lotus) with parts and had to agree to the liability of costs should my parts fail in their cars. When a car has warranty work done, the parts supplier is billed for the part that fails, simple as that. For this I had product liability insurance but the excess makes it useless unless you have a catastrophic failure. The margins can be huge but so are the risks.
I have also been a professional sportsman and been supplied kit at cost by the OEM. Your 'pay' is that you buy at production cost and sell for 50-75% of retail at the end of the season. Production cost of sports equipment is 20-40% of retail cost.
Your experience in this field is what, exactly?Boardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
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Bar Shaker
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Bar Shaker wrote:
In "fact" we do !!
the word in which you highlighted states "probably" it does not state they do or they don't !!
Is Carlsberg "probably" the best lager in the world ???? catch my drift !!! 0 -
Bar Shaker wrote:Pudseyp wrote:I spent 7 years exporting competition car parts around the world to territory distributors who then ran their own retail networks. I also imported and supplied UK car manufacturers (Lotus) with parts and had to agree to the liability of costs should my parts fail in their cars. When a car has warranty work done, the parts supplier is billed for the part that fails, simple as that. For this I had product liability insurance but the excess makes it useless unless you have a catastrophic failure. The margins can be huge but so are the risks.
I have also been a professional sportsman(obviously not mountain biking) and been supplied kit at cost by the OEM. Your 'pay' is that you buy at production cost and sell for 50-75% of retail at the end of the season. Production cost of sports equipment is 20-40% of retail cost.
Your experience in this field is what, exactly?
5 years working for Volvo, 2 years with TWR as their logistics manager, 3 years with Wincanton logistics, and 12 years as an international purchasing and supply manager for the biggest producer of commercial aircraft in the world....so would like to think I know what I am talking about.....
Going back to my car part theory....the manufacturer of the part has liability to replace it if the fault is inheriant in the part in question...they are not liable for any other costs accociated eg fitting and any other overhead incured.....take a look at the sale of goods act...its a bloody good read !
Oh and no wonder Lotus have gone bust a few times..0 -
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CraigXXL wrote:Could this thread be any more off topic or boring?
Errr no not really :oops: :oops:
Will ask Supersonic to open a Forum for Barshaker and I to have hours of debates that does not really help the OP's....
I am getting quite fond of him now, and am rather fearfull of some romance blossoming...they do say love hate relationships do work !
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Pudsey I'm not really sure what you bought at the aircraft company you worked for but aircraft parts are completely different and that may be why you have the opinion that you do. Aviation parts are made to meet NAA construction standards and the supplier must prove they meet these standards, not just be expected to meet them. There is a difference. The part manufacturer must also submit all details of the source of all materials and must maintain these records for every part made. Every component of every part must have serial numbers and these must all be traceable back to the man who made it, when he made it and and what raw material delivery was used.
The one piece aluminium arm rest for Bell Jet Ranger costs over £3,000 as a result. The door for a Cessna 172 is over £15k.
The car industry has no such requirement and relies on the law of tort (another good read) to get things done right. This gives the manufacturer the right to reclaim his direct losses should my part fail. Those losses are his costs in replacing the part. What he cannot claim is consequential losses (the cost of giving a loan car, the car owners loss of a day's wages etc).
If Giant were getting hundreds of rear shocks fail in the bike's warranty period, Fox would be replacing them and paying for them to be fitted to customers' bikes.
Fox, RS and DT Swiss are all making excellent rear air shock units and I don't think there is anything between them in terms of materials, quality of workmanship or reliability. They all perform slightly different and that should be where a buyer looks to get what is best for him.
Craig, you are right and this is my last post on the subject.
Edited to add kisses for Pudsey.
xxxBoardman Elite SLR 9.2S
Boardman FS Pro0 -
Your wrong again, we qualify the materials and process at our supplier the CAA, FAA and EASA certify the aircraft, we can use what we want (within reason)....they do have to have tracability, which is no different from making a car or bike, all parts will have batch numbers etc...
I can also see that an arm rest would be £3,000 but it will be the CNC machining that determines that not the cost of the material....and can't quite see the relevance in what your suggesting....
Your also wrong on Tort....as this is about product liablity not the warranty of the part....ie a famous car manufacturer in the states had problems with brakes....the cost of a recall (as like I have said all along due to fitting costs the defect part that cannot be claimed plus all the communication etc) outweighed the cost of actually paying damages by death as the statistics stated that it was something like one in a million...so letting someone die was cheaper than the recall....sad I no...
All parts ie cars, avaition etc...have a cert of conformity to say it is built to fulfill form and function...failures do happen and their only liabilty is to replace...product liabilty is for the person selling the goods as that's who your contract is with....here itt is nice and simple !!!! http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/ac ... =RESOURCES
And again Giant would be liable for fitting costs not Fox.....
This will also be my last post, as I am getting bored correcting you.....0 -
11 out of 10 points for backpedalling there. Bravo, bravo.Bar Shaker wrote:RS and DT Swiss are all making excellent rear air shock units and I don't think there is anything between them in terms of materials, quality of workmanship or reliability. They all perform slightly different and that should be where a buyer looks to get what is best for him.0 -
god my pants are small, there really giving me wedge.0
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" UPDATE"
Finally got what i wanted !
A nice Fox RP23
Thanks for the help guys, even if we did go off topic a little (volvo, bell rangers - WTF)
just one last thing - will my existing bushes fit ok or would i be better off with a new set from mojo/tft ?You only get one shot .........so make it a double !
Santa Cruz Heckler 650b
http://www.flickr.com/photos/r0880/1177 ... 41137280800 -
Good choice !! was it new or secondhand out of curiosity ?? lol... personally for the sake of 20 quid I would fit new0
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2nd hand - Ebay jobbie.
Should be here tomorrow, if everything is as good as the guy says it is then £155 for an RP23 has got to be a bargain You only get one shot .........so make it a double !
Santa Cruz Heckler 650b
http://www.flickr.com/photos/r0880/1177 ... 41137280800
