Open Pro to Shamal - worth it?

Spudboy

I currently ride a set of Open Pro's on Record hubs with 32 Sapim CX ray spokes. Don't get me wrong these are great wheels but i fancy a set of 'racier' wheels also.

Would I really notice the difference if i went to say Shamal Ultras or should I look to something like Cosmic Carbone SL's or just not bother?

My riding is done largely in Essex/Suffiolk so major climbing is not an issue and compete in the odd triathlon but most riding is done as fast recreational/ club runs etc.

I don't want tubs and i know I don't 'need' new wheels but wondered what (if any) would be best.

Appreciate your feedback.

ugo.santalucia

I would call it a downgrade... your open PRO with quality hubs are top wheels.

Don't know the Shamals, but the Cosmic are big bulky wheels, good for time trialling, not good for every day cycling over rolling terrain, with crosswinds and maybe bad roads.

They work in an ideal world, not in this part of the world

General opinion about campagnolo wheels: nothing but troubles (but hubs are great)

fleshtuxedo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

the Cosmic are big bulky wheels, good for time trialling, not good for every day cycling over rolling terrain, with crosswinds and maybe bad roads.

They work in an ideal world, not in this part of the world

quote]

Completely disagree with this, Cosmics are strong practical wheels that are completely suitable for everyday use. They are a traditional alu rim with a carbon fairing stuck on, so forget about braking issues, or cracking carbon rims on potholes.

As for not being suitable for rollong terrain and crosswinds, I use mine in Yorkshire Dales and have no problems over the bigger hills and probably windier conditions.

I know from my training records that I'm faster with my Cosmics on over proper hilly dales rides than with my shallow, lighter, Dura Ace wheels on. The advantages in flat old Essex and Suffolk would be bigger.

If it's blowing a gale, you could stick your OPs on, but a 52mm rim isn't as hard to handle in winds as some people seem to make out.

ugo.santalucia

... and the carbon spokes are complete nonsense...
1200 pounds for a wheelset which, if you are not obsessed about the split second in a 10 mile TT, won't add anything to your ride.

Also, your wheels can be fixed in a split second by yourself or in any bike shop, see how long it takes to get a replacement for those carbon spokes (provided anyone sell them as singles).
And when those rims wear out, what are you going to do? 1200 pounds down the drain... when your Mavic PRO are worn, you invest 100 pounds in a new set of Open PRO and get them rebuilt for 50 quid or free of charge by yourself...
Also, hubs and skewers are mechanically inferior to the ones you already have

Unless you use them for racing, they don't make any sense whatsoever

Spudboy

I take the point about carbon spokes which is why I said I was looking at Carbone SL which have conventional spokes and are around £750 or so.

Appreciate your opinion though.

inseine

... and the carbon spokes are complete nonsense...

Don't think he's talking about these.

ugo.santalucia

Spudboy wrote:

I take the point about carbon spokes which is why I said I was looking at Carbone SL which have conventional spokes and are around £750 or so.

Appreciate your opinion though.

... still a lot of money for 5 cm of woven carbon fibre profile and some big logos... the rest of the wheel is clearly inferior to a Ksirium (or it would cost a lot more)... and the ksiriums are IMPO inferior to your wheels

Velonutter

Spudboy wrote:

I currently ride a set of Open Pro's on Record hubs with 32 Sapim CX ray spokes. Don't get me wrong these are great wheels but i fancy a set of 'racier' wheels also.

Would I really notice the difference if i went to say Shamal Ultras or should I look to something like Cosmic Carbone SL's or just not bother?

My riding is done largely in Essex/Suffiolk so major climbing is not an issue and compete in the odd triathlon but most riding is done as fast recreational/ club runs etc.

I don't want tubs and i know I don't 'need' new wheels but wondered what (if any) would be best.

Appreciate your feedback.

I actually did the same route as you are planning, I had open pro on record hubs and changed to Shamals....wow what a difference, the Shamals fly, are very light, unaffected by wind and virtually indestructible.

@ugo.santalucia the hubs on the Shamals are the equivalent of Campag Record, carbon sleeving and very very light.

Go for it Spudboy, you'll never regret it and the pair are less than 1500g which forgive me if I am wrong is lighter than the Cosmic Carbones SL

fleshtuxedo

Slow-N-Old wrote:

and the pair are less than 1500g which forgive me if I am wrong is lighter than the Cosmic Carbones SL

Lighter : yes, faster : quite the opposite. Even on a hilly ride.

ugo.santalucia

Slow-N-Old wrote:

Spudboy wrote:

I currently ride a set of Open Pro's on Record hubs with 32 Sapim CX ray spokes. Don't get me wrong these are great wheels but i fancy a set of 'racier' wheels also.

Would I really notice the difference if i went to say Shamal Ultras or should I look to something like Cosmic Carbone SL's or just not bother?

My riding is done largely in Essex/Suffiolk so major climbing is not an issue and compete in the odd triathlon but most riding is done as fast recreational/ club runs etc.

I don't want tubs and i know I don't 'need' new wheels but wondered what (if any) would be best.

Appreciate your feedback.

I actually did the same route as you are planning, I had open pro on record hubs and changed to Shamals....wow what a difference, the Shamals fly, are very light, unaffected by wind and virtually indestructible.

@ugo.santalucia the hubs on the Shamals are the equivalent of Campag Record, carbon sleeving and very very light.

Go for it Spudboy, you'll never regret it and the pair are less than 1500g which forgive me if I am wrong is lighter than the Cosmic Carbones SL

If I can see the "benefit" of buying some high profile wheels, in terms of that touch of added aerodynamicity on the flat and above 25 mph, I really don't see what difference a set of Shamal can do.
If the hubs are the same (I trust you on this), then really I don't see how spending a lot of money on some average rims poorly spoked could improve his ride...

mclarent

if you can afford and like the look of the wheels, go for it. Even better if it makes you want to ride your bike more. For the Triathlons, deeper profile would be better, but for the kind of riding you say you generally do "performance" / "this wheel vs. that" isn't really important in any sense apart from bragging rights, so just do what you want and can afford!

cookiemonster

I did this also - bought a pair of shamals a year or so ago to go along side my trusted open pros on dt240 hubs (which, fwiw have now been rebuilt onto dt1.1 rims). Yes, you'll notice a difference - the shamals are lighter, more aero and stiffer than my Paul Hewitt built open pros - and you do notice this while on the bike.

Also, for what its worth, I still reckon the shamals, maybe with the dura-ace's, are the best of the mid-range, mid-price do-it-all wheels out there.

jon

markyone

just started using the shamal ultra 2 way fit and i think they are very nice wheels had fulcrum 1s before 2010 version and the shamals are simply much better.

Velonutter

Another thing for the Shamals is when you get caught in the rain they don't leave black streaks all over the rims like Ally wheels do, correct me if I am wrong but the wheels are made from Ti

@ugo.santalucia again, the spokes on the Shamals are bladed, the wheels are lighter, the rims are bullet proof and they made a marked difference in my riding so no reason why they shouldn't with the OP

cal_stewart

Could be wrong but the rims on the cosmics are open pros with the spoiler glued on. My slr sound the bollocks and look cool thats all you need to know.

Without being rude how much did you pay for the records with the open pros as they are the wheels i want for my new build?

balthazar

Slow-N-Old wrote:

correct me if I am wrong but the wheels are made from Ti

If by "wheel" you mean "rim", then I don't think any titanium wheel rims are available. It's an inappropriate material for this use.

Velonutter

balthazar wrote:

Slow-N-Old wrote:

correct me if I am wrong but the wheels are made from Ti

If by "wheel" you mean "rim", then I don't think any titanium wheel rims are available. It's an inappropriate material for this use.

Yep sorry meant rim.

I could have sworn I saw something about TI rims, but must have been mistaken :?

Not sure if they aren't Ti why they don't leave a black residue and mine are n't the anodised black version :?

fleshtuxedo

Slow-N-Old wrote:

I could have sworn I saw something about TI rims, but must have been mistaken :?

/quote]

Although alu, they are/were available in a 'titanium' finish, maybe that was it?

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

General opinion about campagnolo wheels: nothing but troubles (but hubs are great)

That isn't general opinion........

inseine

They were also available in gold, but iIdon't think it was real gold

antikythera

Yep, the "Ti" reference is to the colour, as opposed to the original release which was gold, to mark the re-release of the Shamal name.

Can't say anything about the Carbones, but the Shamals are great and the difference is noticable. I agree with the previous descriptions and add that they are indestructible. I hit a piece of road furniture which left me unconscious and in hospital, the (alloy) bars were bent like track bars, but the Shamals were perfectly true! So they should survive most English roads

They are an affordable all purpose wheel that delivers. I'd only recommend looking at a higher priced option if you have a specific purpose in mind.

inseine

I think the main 'problem' is that it's so hard to get tyres on and off campag wheels. A mate punctured on Shamals the other week and it took three of us to get the tyre back on.

murph100

I've had my Shamals for nearly 2 years, use them all the time all year round for racing & training, on really crap Irish roads and never had the slightest trouble with them, they are virtually indestructable !

I honestly dont think there is anything else on the market as light ( mine were 1450g ) and as durable as the Shamals. They are also about the stiffest wheel I've ever used. Dead easy to service the hubs also.

As for mounting tyres, Contis and Mich seem to be a right b@stard to get on, Hutch Fusion 2 Tubeless are a nightmare ! BUT this year I've been using Veloflex Corsa 22 and Vitt Pave Open CGs and even I can mount and remove them by hand, much better ride & grip too.

I've used the Mavic Carbone SL quite a lot, my mate has a set, but I find them to be way too heavy on the hills in comparison to the Shamals, its like having brake rub all the way up, and at 70kg I found them a bloody nightmare in crosswinds, so does my mate at 82kg, he bought a shallow rimmed front wheel to use on windy days. On the flats I honestly found no difference in holding speed at 40kmph, I actually preferred the Shamals ability to make a jump instantly, as opposed to the Carbone SL more sluggish wind up with the whoosh whoosh noisy giveaway guaranteed to ruin any surprise attack.

One other thing to note about the Carbone SLs, the carbon fairing acts like a boom box, which means that EVERYBODY in a group knows when you're changing gears unless they're completely deaf, most of the sprinters I know got rid of them.

Just my 2 cents

Velonutter

inseine wrote:

I think the main 'problem' is that it's so hard to get tyres on and off campag wheels. A mate punctured on Shamals the other week and it took three of us to get the tyre back on.

I have never had any sort of problem changing tyres and I use Michelin Pro 3's

wildmoustache

Never had any problems with shamal ultras in 4 years use ... ridden them across europe 3 times, raced them dozens of times .... smashed them over the pyrenees, alps, dolomites, appenines etc. commuted ... on they go.

they are very solid, reasonably ilght and have the best hubs out there. the only downsides are so-so aerodynamics and the spokes can catch a bit of wind in the hillls. if you want high-end clinchers and ride campagnolo then these are great.

they are easy to get tyres on and off (well of the ones i've tried anyway ... PR3, PR2, Vitt CX, Vitt CG, Ultremos, GP4000S, GP4000, Vitt Pave.

murph100

Yeah, technique is very big factor in how easy or difficult you find it to mount a tyre. Looking back, I reckon I had crap technique when I was struggling fitting the Mich on the Shamals, whereas now I can pop on the Vitts & Veloflex with no levers just by using a better technique. Not even a hint of sweat or blood !

wildmoustache

I generally use a michelin lever for the final part of fitting a tyre. if you're careful, there's no problem.

obviously new tyres are harder than those that have been on.

of all the rims i've used, only mavics were easier to get tyres on and off than the shamals.

nferrar

Aren't the carbone's just an Open Pro with a bit of carbon glued on to them anyway? Not sure I'd 'upgrade' from your current set to either that you mention, a Fulcrum Zero might be tempting though.

murph100

Fulcrum Zero is the same as Shamal Utlra, just slightly different spoke spacing on the rear wheel, same factory same parts bin etc.

Eurus = Fulcrum One

All depends on whether you want the Campagnolo name on your wheels or not

magliaceleste

Rolf F wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

General opinion about campagnolo wheels: nothing but troubles (but hubs are great)

That isn't general opinion........

Agreed. I've had Shamlals in the past and they are excellent wheels. Pretty light, reliable and look good.

I also use open pros on the Winter bike for which they are ideal. Hit a pot hole in the dark and you can retrue them easy enough. When they wear out, cheap to replace. Fine wheels but they hardly set the world alight.

ugo.santalucia

Light and stiff are words that fill the mouth but mean nothing t the cyclist who actualy puts the miles in. These are adjectives used by the industry to justify unrealistic price tags and the use of fancy, often unsuitable materials.

Light, yes, but where? Open PRO are light rims, you can shave another 10-15 grams each, but then what? Where are the weight savings made? Normally by reducing the number of spokes, which is never a good idea, by shortening the spoke length with unsuitable lacing patterns, by using light alloy nipples, which last less than the brass ones and by shaving material off the hubs, so making them less durable.
You shave 200-300 grams, which is nothing, unless you need to win the Time Trial up the Alpe d'Huez and you end up with a product which is mechanically inferior and less versatile (try and do the Roubaix with your Shamals)

Stiff, yes, but why? Some wheels feel stiff because the spokes are tensioned to 1.3-1.5 KN. This is necssary to compensate for the lack of spokes (20 instead of 32 is the norm these days). Stiff doesn't mean better performing... it normally mean they're harsh and on a long ride just unpleasant. A bit like doing 1000 miles in a Mercedes saloon or in a Morgan... which one would you go for?
The performance gain is only obtained on near perfect road surfaces, which are very rare in England (better in other parts of the Kingdom, definitively better in continental Europe).

That's why I think the Open PRO with 32 spokes are overall better wheels (and way cheaper) than the Shamals. The Cosmic Carbone are just silly on training rides, they're OK for posers, who like the carbon weave and the big logos