Period Restoration or Modern Refurbishment

rjsterry

As some of you might have noticed, I've acquired a 1985 King of Mercia frame from ITB, and am in the process of building it back up into a complete bike. I've already decided to get the rear dropouts re-tracked to take more widely available 130mm hubs, and will be getting Mercian to do a full respray and re-lining of the lugs + new transfers. I had also originally planned to kit it out with vintage DT shifters and drive train, but after seeing the Condor Classico in this month's C+ (an old school steel frame fitted with new Campy groupset - in silver of course) I'm having a bit of a wobble now.

I've been using Shimano STIs for years, and get on very well with them, but the current models wouldn't look right on the Mercian, regardless of the Shimano vs. Campy argument. SRAM would look even more out o place, so it would have to be Campy in silver (carbon would look a bit wrong as well). Only trouble is, even a Veloce groupset is around £400 - and I've no idea whether this is what I should go for - so it would delay the project somewhat, while I save up, whereas the vintage kit could be bought up a piece at a time. I also quite like the idea of returning the bike to something like it's original condition. On the other hand, I do want to ride it, not put it in a museum.

You see my problem?

PS. Mods, please feel free to relocate if you think this would be better in General or Workshop.

tgotb

If you're not in a hurry you can pick up used modern kit at much more palatable prices; I've almost finished building up a TT bike with nearly new components, for a fraction of the price of getting them new. Once you've ridden it a couple of hundred miles it'll all be used anyway, so what's the difference.

Old frames can still be very good in a modern context, but groupsets have come a long way...

rjsterry

I have been leaning towards this, but have to admit to still being an ebay virgin. I'm just a bit torn by some of the nice vintage kit as well.

I need to make my mind up, as I would need to get lever bosses added to the frame at the same time as the respray.

itboffin

Vintage is good however modern kit works a whole lot better especially brakes, you know what i'd do?

Buy the modern kit Shimano or Campy but don't bother with STI or Ergos use modern downtube indexed shifters and normal (ie classic) brake levers.

Best of both worlds and it'll save you a small fortune.

rjsterry

itboffin wrote:

Vintage is good however modern kit works a whole lot better especially brakes, you know what i'd do?

Buy the modern kit Shimano or Campy but don't bother with STI or Ergos use modern downtube indexed shifters and normal (ie classic) brake levers.

Best of both worlds and it'll save you a small fortune.

This also sounds like a good idea, and potentially far more palatable to Mrs RJS as well. I would have to relearn the use of DT shifters, but if they were indexed, I can't see that being too much of a problem.

I do love all the vintage kit though. Perhaps if I track down another frame, then I could do one of each... Oh dear, this is how you ended up with 9 isn't it ITB.

What's really killing me at the moment is that when we cleared out my grandfather's garage a couple of years ago, we had to get rid of a decent tourer frame, plus a whole load of bits and pieces, including some Weinmann centre pull brakes still in their packaging. I was living in a cramped one bed flat at the time, and just didn't have the space for it. Gutted.

ketsbaia

You can pick up decent second-hand Campy groupsets for less than £400. There was one in the classifieds recently (might still be for sale) for around £200 I think.

If I were doing it, I think the temptation to have dt shifters would be outweighed by the novelty almost certainly wearing off after a week or so of use.

E2a: Here's the groupset.

itboffin

Shimano 7, 8 or 9 speed downtube shifters all work perfectly, in fact I have a set somewhere.

Clarion

I'd use bar end levers on a tourer. Bit of class.

rjsterry

I'm afraid I have a completely insupportable prejudice against bar end shifters on anything other than TT bars, but the DT shifters would give me the option to go for Ergo or STI levers at a later date if I felt so inclined, so i think I will get the bosses added on. Mercian are going to do quiite well out of me I fear.

itboffin

rjsterry wrote:

I'm afraid I have a completely insupportable prejudice against bar end shifters on anything other than TT bars, but the DT shifters would give me the option to go for Ergo or STI levers at a later date if I felt so inclined, so i think I will get the bosses added on. Mercian are going to do quiite well out of me I fear.

Yeh but it'll be soooo worth it

rjsterry

itboffin wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm afraid I have a completely insupportable prejudice against bar end shifters on anything other than TT bars, but the DT shifters would give me the option to go for Ergo or STI levers at a later date if I felt so inclined, so i think I will get the bosses added on. Mercian are going to do quiite well out of me I fear.

Yeh but it'll be soooo worth it

Oh absolutely. Getting excited just thinking about it.

itboffin

rjsterry wrote:

itboffin wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I'm afraid I have a completely insupportable prejudice against bar end shifters on anything other than TT bars, but the DT shifters would give me the option to go for Ergo or STI levers at a later date if I felt so inclined, so i think I will get the bosses added on. Mercian are going to do quiite well out of me I fear.

Yeh but it'll be soooo worth it

Oh absolutely. Getting excited just thinking about it.

Tell you what i'll lend you my downtube shifters if I can find them, what speed are you planning ?

rjsterry

That's awfully decent of you old chap. Well, if I'm having the frame re-tracked for 130mm hubs, I should make the most of it and go for 9sp I think. Don't even know where to start on the wheels, but again it would need to be shiny and silver (such a chrome tart) and I think they would need to be handbuilt to do it justice.

Oh that reminds me, I need to get that BB out for you.

rolf_f

Period has its advantages - eg, once you've bought the stuff, you don't need to change it again as it just lasts forever. The sheer mechanical simplicity of a downtube lever and separate brake setup is great.

Have a look for Suntour derailleurs - my old Raleigh has the Cyclone GT - http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Sun ... le%29.html

As good as Vintage Campag but without the high prices. The mechs are a dream to operate - the lack of indexing is an irrelevance with downtube shifters.

rjsterry

Hmmm, out of interest, are there any issues matching newer indexed DT shifters with older rear mechs (which were designed for use with friction DT shifters)? Obviously, the mech will work to some extent, but will the indexing be a pig to sort out?

Mind you, if I'm aiming for 9sp shifters and cassette, I'll probably be asking a lot for an older derailleur to cope with a 9sp cassette anyway, regardless of whether the shifters are friction or indexed.

rolf_f

Not sure how much lateral movement you need - I'd have thought that was the only concern if you aren't bothering with indexing. If no indexing, then no need to worry about matching the shifter indexing to the cassette. Obviously the old cassettes are more widely spaced.

Question is, do you actually need so many gears on the cassette? I've coped with the old Raleigh in the hills of Sussex (got up Cobb Lane on the Raleigh - inner ring is 42 (!!) but it does have 28 teeth on the biggest cassette ring) and it's been OK. Depends on what you want to do with the bike.

On my bike (slightly grubby but very nicely made components!):

rjsterry

I've still got a 52/42T chainset on my Giant, and until recently, a 7sp 11-28T cassette. It's not the spread that's the problem, but the rather large gaps that a wide range 7sp cassette creates. It'll probably be mostly ridden around the North Downs, with occasional commuting when I feel like a change, and some trips to Derbyshire. 11-28T works pretty well for the North Downs, but filling in a couple of the gaps will make it a bit smoother.

Assuming I have a 9sp cassette and 9sp indexed shifters, it's just down to whether the indexing of the shifter produces the right amount of swing to shift from one sprocket to the next as you suggest. Obviously non-indexed will work fine, so as DT shifters are relatively cheap, I could try both and see how I get on.

Nice pics BTW. Especially like the drilled chainrings. ITB has a couple of SunTour derailleurs I am umming and ahhing over. BTW, how so little wear on the chainrings and sprockets?

rolf_f

rjsterry wrote:

Nice pics BTW. Especially like the drilled chainrings. ITB has a couple of SunTour derailleurs I am umming and ahhing over. BTW, how so little wear on the chainrings and sprockets?

Big fat chain and cogs! I've been using my old Dawes all summer, rain or shine, still with the original chain and no apparent sign of wear (though I've not put the chain wear checker on it yet). Thats probably at least 3500 miles. They don't make em like they used to

What model of Suntour is ITB offering? I think post Cyclones aren't in the same league but probably still decent.

itboffin

Rolf F wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Nice pics BTW. Especially like the drilled chainrings. ITB has a couple of SunTour derailleurs I am umming and ahhing over. BTW, how so little wear on the chainrings and sprockets?

Big fat chain and cogs! I've been using my old Dawes all summer, rain or shine, still with the original chain and no apparent sign of wear (though I've not put the chain wear checker on it yet). Thats probably at least 3500 miles. They don't make em like they used to

What model of Suntour is ITB offering? I think post Cyclones aren't in the same league but probably still decent.

SV and SVX I believe, they work very nicely but could do with new jockey wheels.

rolf_f

Another argument against using modern kit - you'd just end up with something akin to a modern Bob Jackson. Nothing wrong with that but ultimately it would make the bike less interesting. Perhaps. In my opinion