redundancy

mmuk

any legal's out there?

a friend of mine, who works for a Plc has just been told that his 'level' of 12 managers is being reduced to 9, and all are in consultation for redundancy.

The company will not say what the redundancy package is, and have told the 12 that they must reapply for the new jobs - whether they want to or not.

Is this legal (I presume it is, but never having been there myself, I was quite surprised!

cheers

MM

bigmat

Sounds legal but still sh*t. They will have to take reasonable steps to redeploy him if he doesn't get one of the nine positions I think - either in another location or another position. Whether he'd want to accept a demotion or not is another matter though.

sloboy

That's roughly how it worked at my place over the summer. We started the process with, I think, 14 in the process, with 12 spots on the new org chart.

Naturally, everyone in the process hits the headhunters ASAP and so everyone is shaken loose. So far, the company dumped the 2 they were after dumping and 4 more have walked out for greener grass, with at least 2 more still actively considering other offers.

Mister W

Unfortunately it is perfectly legal. My company did it 18 months ago. They reorganised the IT Development department and everyone had to apply for the jobs they wanted. TBH the company already knew who they wanted so it was a bit of a pointless exercise but, as sloboy says, everyone gets their CVs out and starts talking to recruitment agents so we lost two of the people the company wanted to keep.

He should be pressurising the company to announce the redundancy package but if they're being cagey about it then he can expect it to be sh1t.

Mccaria

Under EU law if you want/need to reduce a number of positions at a given level then you have to consider all people at that level - in effect this means that all employees at that level have to put on notice that their position is "at risk".

Even if it is obvious that say you have 12 employees and 10 positions and there are 2 "weaker" employees, all employees have to be considered - otherwise the employer leaves himself liable to compensation claims. The criteria for selecting the successful employees has to be documented and shown to be fair with each employee assessed against the criteria/qulification requirements for the job.

P-Jay

Sounds shit but it's pretty much whaty happned to us at RBS.

We were told the our postions no longer existed, but 2 postitions had been created at a slightly higher lever that the 16 of had to apply for.

Worked out OK for us, most of us had 8-10 years service and were getting 3.5 weeks pay per year (it's tax free too) and were more than happy to go, the only two that didn't and wanted to stay applied for the new roles and got them.

Those of us that left all had new jobs within 3 months, abet some not as good.

Try to not let it get you down, I remember what it was like. I actually had been planning to leave for ages for different reasons so it was basically being paid to go, but I remember it still badly effected me and my confidence nose dived - even non-work wise. But in reflection it was a blessing.

mmuk

thanks guys - I think it is the fact that they have to reapply for the jobs - even if they'd rather leave - that annoys them most of all!

cheers

HV

guinea

They cannot make anyone apply for a job.

They can of course use any selection/competency/skill process they like to decide who stay or goes.

I just took redundancy after nearly 11 years. I got a full month pay for every year I worked and the first £30k was tax free. I took three weeks to find a new job while I was working my notice and now get paid 15-20% more.

Redundancy, what's not to like? Tell your friend to go for it. It's always the idiots who get left behind, the good guys get out early. It's a big chance to do something new so he shouldn't be scared.

ex-pat scot

Near universal stories that "redundancy was a fantastic opportunity".
Certainly for me a few years ago.
Got 7 mths full pay (gross) and moved onwards and upwards.

Ben6899

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

Have you already started looking elsewhere? Applyling etc?

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

Have you already started looking elsewhere? Applyling etc?

Yep. The industry I work in is completely on its ar$e, so I'm struggling to be honest. I keep thinking I should accept notice, work notice, take money, chill for a few months and then decide what to do after Christmas... emigrate, travel, career change...

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

Have you already started looking elsewhere? Applyling etc?

Yep. The industry I work in is completely on its ar$e, so I'm struggling to be honest. I keep thinking I should accept notice, work notice, take money, chill for a few months and then decide what to do after Christmas... emigrate, travel, career change...

I'm not keen on coming across as patronising, and I'm sure you know this already, but as someone who spent a long time unemployed, only getting a job mid June, (though with less experience I suspect!), all i can say is that in the current climate, you need to broaden the net and apply to hundreds of jobs, unless you're either very lucky or very talented.

As much as taking time off sounds attractive, I found it impossible to enjoy any free time I had when I knew I could and probably should be applying to more places. It's a permenant guilt which errodes your self confidence very quickly, on top of the actual process.

Ben6899

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

Have you already started looking elsewhere? Applyling etc?

Yep. The industry I work in is completely on its ar$e, so I'm struggling to be honest. I keep thinking I should accept notice, work notice, take money, chill for a few months and then decide what to do after Christmas... emigrate, travel, career change...

I'm not keen on coming across as patronising, and I'm sure you know this already, but as someone who spent a long time unemployed, only getting a job mid June, (though with less experience I suspect!), all i can say is that in the current climate, you need to broaden the net and apply to hundreds of jobs, unless you're either very lucky or very talented.

As much as taking time off sounds attractive, I found it impossible to enjoy any free time I had when I knew I could and probably should be applying to more places. It's a permenant guilt which errodes your self confidence very quickly, on top of the actual process.

You don't have to worry about being patronising; I'm not as stuffy, self-important and sensitive as some on here! I agree about broadening the net, but it's all about deciding what exactly I want to do. My current job is very skill-specific so if I went for a career change using my transferable skills and not my professional ones I'd probably be looking at a pay reduction.

Thanks for the advice re free time/guilt not applying etc, but I'm certain that if I use the time and payout to travel, then there won't be a shred of guilt to be seen.

ex-pat scot

Polish the CV in advance
Talk to the agencies.
Get your name and face known.

All ASAP. Don't wait for the "consultation period" to be announced.

Oh - and if all else fails- you could pawn that lovely Cadex!

Ben6899

ex-pat scot wrote:

1. Polish the CV in advance
2. Talk to the agencies.
3. Get your name and face known.

4. All ASAP. Don't wait for the "consultation period" to be announced.

5. Oh - and if all else fails- you could pawn that lovely Cadex!

1. CV polished
2. Agencies on board
3. I'm working on this part

4. My CV is out there 24/7 - you never know what might come up.

5. And I'll pretend you never said that!

But it's looking more and more like a career change is on the cards. Could be a good kick up the ar$e for me.

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

My job's at risk. Interview soon for an internal role... if that's unsuccessful then I'll be served my notice.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking the money and moving on, but what if I don't find anything else?

Have you already started looking elsewhere? Applyling etc?

Yep. The industry I work in is completely on its ar$e, so I'm struggling to be honest. I keep thinking I should accept notice, work notice, take money, chill for a few months and then decide what to do after Christmas... emigrate, travel, career change...

I'm not keen on coming across as patronising, and I'm sure you know this already, but as someone who spent a long time unemployed, only getting a job mid June, (though with less experience I suspect!), all i can say is that in the current climate, you need to broaden the net and apply to hundreds of jobs, unless you're either very lucky or very talented.

As much as taking time off sounds attractive, I found it impossible to enjoy any free time I had when I knew I could and probably should be applying to more places. It's a permenant guilt which errodes your self confidence very quickly, on top of the actual process.

You don't have to worry about being patronising; I'm not as stuffy, self-important and sensitive as some on here! I agree about broadening the net, but it's all about deciding what exactly I want to do. My current job is very skill-specific so if I went for a career change using my transferable skills and not my professional ones I'd probably be looking at a pay reduction.

Thanks for the advice re free time/guilt not applying etc, but I'm certain that if I use the time and payout to travel, then there won't be a shred of guilt to be seen.

Given the climate, it may be that a career change is forced upon you, rather than you being able to pick where you want to go. That's what happened to me. It turns out OK because it pays an awful lot more than where I was and compared to my peers, but I'm not sure how much job satisfaction I get, if any....

Frank the tank

How can you be told you HAVE to apply for one of the 9 posts, can you just refuse to apply for a job but instead apply for your redundancy package?

Skeltron

Join the dole queue and live cheap, that's what I did.

Gazzaputt

I have just heard in a former workplace that some staff's post are being transferred to an overseas dept. They will be expected to travel to the overseas office once per week. If they don't like it they must resign. Legal?

guinea

Gazzaputt wrote:

I have just heard in a former workplace that some staff's post are being transferred to an overseas dept. They will be expected to travel to the overseas office once per week. If they don't like it they must resign. Legal?

Depends what's in their contract. Most companies have wording that says they can move them a certain distance if offices move, most have that set to nationally.

However, travel when your job doesn't move is tricky. As long as there are no extra hours, including travel, this would be covered in the 'any other jobs we ask you to do' part of your contract. If however, you are staying overnight weekly and this isn't explicitly mentioned inthe contract it would seem unreasonable. 'Occassional travel' wouldn't stand up it it was every week. There are certainly grounds for constructive dismisal if you had to resign due to issues around travelling.

It all depends what the contract says.

Pross

I'm assuming that those of you who say 'redundancy was great for me' had good terms and conditions in place on redundancy and were lucky to be in industries that had jobs available elsewhere? I was lucky to avoid the redundancies my company made last year. Those that went were paid statutory redundancy rates which I believe is a week's pay for each year's service up to a maximum of 20 (although it varies with age) and most of them had only been in their job for a couple of years. also, as virtually every other company in the sector was making even bigger cut backs there was a huge number of people fighting for next to no jobs. I suspect in the majority of cases, at any time but even more so in the current climate, redundancy is not a good thing.

Pross

Gazzaputt wrote:

I have just heard in a former workplace that some staff's post are being transferred to an overseas dept. They will be expected to travel to the overseas office once per week. If they don't like it they must resign. Legal?

i suspect they could put together a good case for constructive dismissal. Are they being expected to foot the bill for travel themselves?

Stone Glider

The problem with working in a sector which is suffering a structural collapse of business is there may not be any other jobs. I was made redundant thirty months ago with no chance of re-employment, too old, too expensive, with a statutory package which was not generous!

I chose to go cycling as there were no jobs that would suit. In thirteen months time I get my state pension and obtained my other pension deals just before the collapse of pension funds and annuity rates. You may not be so fortunate and will have to broaden your approach to new employment. Try looking at other occupations that require similar skillsets that you already have, or can acquire with minimal re-training. Otherwise , hang on grimly, keep your powder dry and keep the exit strategy bubbling under. The reality is that there will be a list at HQ which may, or may not have your name on it. If not, great but it will unsettle you as there is often a second round of this sort of thing when the result of the first course of redundancy fails to achieve the desired result. Good luck

Cleat Eastwood

My dad was a minge juice bottler. Never missed a days work in his life.

Captain Fagor

Pross wrote:

Those that went were paid statutory redundancy rates which I believe is a week's pay for each year's service up to a maximum of 20 (although it varies with age).

And even the gross weekly pay is limited to £380 per week. I checked a few months ago when my company announced office closures. It has since announced the remaining staff levels will be cut by 20%, with the statutory redundancy package not being augmented. So with 14 years service, I'd get £5320.

Not everyone gets redundancy (or early retirement) packages like those at RBS / NDPB's / local council.

crumbschief

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

My dad was a minge juice bottler. Never missed a days work in his life.

Did he used to work for ClitRus by chance? we might have crossed paths at some point.