Which 'relaxed' geometry bike?

TMR

Hello all, my first post here so be kind!

I've used a mountain bike for years for recreation and commuting. This year I adapted it more to road use and did the Coast to Coast in May, and the Great North Bike Ride last Sunday. I really enjoy taking part in charity rides and have decided to get a proper road bike. I have done some research, and know that a bike with an aggressive geometry isn't for me. For one thing, I have a small amount of *ahem* 'cake retention', so leaning too far forward is uncomfortable.

I thought that a 'relaxed' geometry bike, such as a Specialized Secteur Comp, might be ideal. Can any of you recommend bikes from other manufacturers with a similar geometry that I should consider? I know the 2011 models will be out shortly, so would hope for one of those.

My list of wishes aren't long: Shimano 105 throughout, will accept an aluminium frame with carbon forks - doesn't have to be all carbon - as long as it's good. Finally, it must look nice, because that's important to me.

Budget: £1500

TIA

antfly

How about a specailized roubaix. If you go for a 2010 model you could save a few hundred quid as well.

TMR

antfly wrote:

How about a specailized roubaix. If you go for a 2010 model you could save a few hundred quid as well.

It's a possibility. The only difficulty I may have is in finding a store local to me with stock in my size. There's a Specialized Store in Ruislip, which is a short drive away, so I can give them a call and see what the score is.

Any thoughts on other brands than Specialized?

antfly

Colnago do a relaxed one called the Ace. Bianchi do one, it is called the 928 coast to coast, I think.

Bobbinogs

I think the possible options depend on just how relaxed you want your position to be. The Cannondale Synapse (for example) is a lovely bike with a slightly relaxed geo and well worth any upgrade investment post purchase and the 105 version nearly fits in your budget (it might be worth delaying any actual purchase until the new 2011 versions are out and then looking for a 2010).

In any case, you need to sit on a few bikes, ride around the block and see what works. Just having a spare tyre (err, not a tub in your back pocket) shouldn't exclude the majority of bikes. Most roadies spend a lot of time on the hoods so don't feel you have to get something ultra-comfortable on the drops. A decent bike fit will also make all the difference (you should be aiming to get your back angle right for you rather than just as upright as possible).

keef66

These are the ones I've been considering. I don't have the cake retention problem, but I'm just not as comfortable on racing geometry as I used to be, so I'm looking for shorter top tubes / higher head tubes.

Cannondale Synapse (carbon and alu versions)
Spesh Roubaix (carbon) or Secteur (alu)
Scott CR1 (carbon)
Giant Defy (alu)
Bianchi Infinito (carbon)

I don't know which, equipped with 105, will fit your budget. Probly only the alu ones.

UPGRAYEDD

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/bike-reviews/giant-defy-advanced-4-tested/3989.html[/url]

UPGRAYEDD

Let's try that again:

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/bike-reviews/giant-defy-advanced-4-tested/3989.html

Essex Man

keef66 wrote:

These are the ones I've been considering. I don't have the cake retention problem, but I'm just not as comfortable on racing geometry as I used to be, so I'm looking for shorter top tubes / higher head tubes.

Cannondale Synapse (carbon and alu versions)
Spesh Roubaix (carbon) or Secteur (alu)
Scott CR1 (carbon)
Giant Defy (alu)
Bianchi Infinito (carbon)

I don't know which, equipped with 105, will fit your budget. Probly only the alu ones.

+ Giant Defy Advanced (carbon)
+ Orbea Onix (carbon)
+ Van Nicholas Mistral (Titanium)

...as well as the ones you have menionted, these have been on my list, and can be had at 105 level for your budget. The Onix spec has improved this year (well, 2011) and so have the colours.

keef66

+2 for the Orbea Onix. that too is on my (not very) short list.

Can you really get the Van Nic with 105 for £1500??

keef66

Crikey! Fatbirds do it for £1300! The list is getting longer!

KINGGARY

Ive got to say that the van nic for £1300 looks very tempting for a winter bike.
I also have a roubaix which i find very comfortable, however as i get more used to road riding the bars are getting lower and lower !
I would go for the van nic, i have read some good reviews and being titanium it will probably outlast us all !

TMR

Thanks for the great advice guys. I'll look into the bikes suggested.

Just something I forgot to mention in my original post, I've put a deposit down on a 2010 Secteur Comp and a 2010 Bianchi Via Nirone 7 Veloce at Evans. The plan is to take them both for a spin, then I'll have a base against which I can compare the others. This is probably going to be a long drawn out process, but it's obviously important that I get this right.

Whichever model I buy in the end will be fitted with a custom Fizik saddle, and I'll be getting a proper fitting done here: http://www.downlandcycles.co.uk/probikefit.htm - it's a bit of a drive from home, but it makes sense to get it done properly! Hopefully I can learn from watching them do it as well and put that knowledge to use in the future.

Off I go to check out those recommendations - it's a hard life!

TMR

Just a quick question chaps - the Van Nicolas is a titanium frame - how does that compare weight wise to carbon & alu, and what are the benefits of titanium over those materials?

Thanks

TMR

Evening bump!

vorsprung

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Just a quick question chaps - the Van Nicolas is a titanium frame - how does that compare weight wise to carbon & alu, and what are the benefits of titanium over those materials?

Thanks

Titanium compares favourably on weight vs carbon and alu.
There are two benefits with Titanium

1) it's ride characteristics are like steel but softer. It soaks up buzz fairly well
2) it does not rust or corrode

As for "strength" it's a more complex story. A Ti tube of the same weight as a steel or Al tube would be stronger. But Titanium is very difficult to weld properly. This means that failure at the weld points is more likely on a Titanium frame than a Aluminum one. A cheap Titanium frame is still "expensive" relative to a aluminum one but the welding quality might be inferior. So it is not always the case that a Titanium frame will be more durable than a aluminum one.
Van Nicholas, Sabbath, Lightspeed and other major Ti manufacturers have a lifetime warrantee on their frames

Titanium is probably more "knock" resistant than Carbon Fibre. A deep scratch followed by a sharp blow could cause terminal damage to a carbon fibre frame but not to a Titanium frame. However, most carbon fibre frames are moulded in a single piece and have no welds to fail on...

Carbon fibre could be stiffer than titanium, if designed for stiffness.

You can't get custom sizing on carbon frames. You can on titanium

Pros mostly ride carbon fibre. I doubt that any of them ride titanium

TMR

Vorsprung, thanks very much for taking the time to post.

Why don't Pros ride Ti? It would seem to be very suitable, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in weight either.

In your opinion, how much should a Ti frame cost before the likely quality becomes acceptable? I'm considering an Enigma Eclipse ATM, which sells for £999. If all the Ti frames use the same tubes, why are they different prices? I guess there must be something specific about the designs? Or can you get different Ti tubes in the same way you can get different steel ones?

vorsprung

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Vorsprung, thanks very much for taking the time to post.

Why don't Pros ride Ti? It would seem to be very suitable, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in weight either.

Titanium costs more than Carbon Fibre as a material. If you are mass producing bikes, a CF one is going to be cheaper per unit than a Ti bike. Pros don't care about the durability of a bike as they get a new one each season. And a soft ride isn't as important as other factors. So there are no significant advantages for a Pro and the cost disadvantage.

In your opinion, how much should a Ti frame cost before the likely quality becomes acceptable?

Dunno exactly. But if it looks like a bargain it probably isn't.

See latest post on my blog for stuff on relaxed geometry, Ti vs Carbon etc etc:
"A new Bike?"

softlad

there are no 'bad' Ti frames out there - the majority will be made out of decent aerospace grade Ti and most will also have a decent (if not lifetime) warranty - nothing to worry about there.

The same cannot necessarily be said of carbon fibre frames, but that's not to say there is any more 'real world' risk associated with buying one.

Carbon represents progress, that's all. Steel was the mainstay for years, until Ti became a lightweight alternative and manufacturing techniques brought it to within the reasonable cost of a handmade steel frame. These days, carbon fibre frames can be made relatively cheaply, and carbon offers distinct benefits in weight, stiffness and power transfer. Each material still has its place though...

greasedscotsman

vorsprung wrote:

You can't get custom sizing on carbon frames. You can on titanium

Pros mostly ride carbon fibre. I doubt that any of them ride titanium

Both Parlee and Viner make custom carbon framesets.

Pros ride whatever their given to ride, most teams will have a bike supplier and will give them whatever bike they want to sell. I'm sure there are teams that ride Ti frames, but they will probably be smaller domestic teams as the likes of Enigma, Van Nic or even Litespeed can't compete with a company like Specialized in sponsoring a team.

vorsprung

greasedscotsman wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

You can't get custom sizing on carbon frames. You can on titanium

Both Parlee and Viner make custom carbon framesets.

and Serotta

http://www.cyclefit.co.uk/serotta_custom_bikes.html

I think the reason I never realised this before was that my budget is never going to stretch to £3k to £6k just for the frame!

AidanOH

Hi All.

Hargroves cycles have a few off the CR1 Teams in stock at £1399 in a range of sizes, they are down too one off the 58's since the weekend, when one of them found its way into my kitchen.:)

Full carbon, full 105...Lovely.

paul_smith_srcc

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Just a quick question chaps - the Van Nicolas is a titanium frame - how does that compare weight wise to carbon & alu, and what are the benefits of titanium over those materials....

This thread may be of interest as I do compare frame materials in some detail

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

TMR

Paul_Smith SRCC wrote:

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Just a quick question chaps - the Van Nicolas is a titanium frame - how does that compare weight wise to carbon & alu, and what are the benefits of titanium over those materials....

This thread may be of interest as I do compare frame materials in some detail

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

Thank you Paul, will check it out.

wildmoustache

Ti has a lower stiffness to weight ratio than carbon. For a given level of stiffness the bike has to be heavier. But it's only 300g or so heavier, so not much in the real world.

As mentioned, the big benefit of Ti vs. carbon is the impact resistance. Though carbon is stronger than its dwindling band of detractors will have you believe.

Carbon can be tuned more easily by manufacturers to bring out specific characteristics, though this does happen with Ti to a degree also.

Take a Ti bike for a ride and see if you like it is my advice.

On the comfort point, there are significant comfort differences between frames of the same material so don't write a material off on comfort grounds alone.

rolf_f

The Bianchis aren't particularly short in geometry despite the C2C ref. Quite a few bikes seem to get promoted as having sportive geometry but when you look at the numbers, they are just the same as everything else!

What does have a short geometry is the Ribble Gran Fondo (just ordered one) - Carbon framed and costing £1070 with 105 (can up it to £1500 with options easily enough!) though for me it has to be Campagnolo. However, the Sportive Racing is another long framed bike.........

paul_smith_srcc

Rolf F wrote:

The Bianchis aren't particularly short in geometry despite the C2C ref. Quite a few bikes seem to get promoted as having sportive geometry but when you look at the numbers, they are just the same as everything else!............

The geometry may well be similar between a Sportive and Race spec’ frame, although the set up of the latter will still normally be set up stiffer; thicker straighter rear stays for example, the shorter higher position that many prefer on a Sportive set up can often be achieved with shorter stems set to the raised angle and spacers.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

vorsprung

Rolf F wrote:

The Bianchis aren't particularly short in geometry despite the C2C ref. Quite a few bikes seem to get promoted as having sportive geometry but when you look at the numbers, they are just the same as everything else!

What does have a short geometry is the Ribble Gran Fondo (just ordered one) - Carbon framed and costing £1070 with 105 (can up it to £1500 with options easily enough!) though for me it has to be Campagnolo. However, the Sportive Racing is another long framed bike.........

Rolf, you are looking for a slightly more racey bike than me

My old Setavento custom Ti (good fit): 555 Virtual top tube, 190 non integrated headtube
Ribble Gran Fondo: 570 VTT, 180 integrated headtube
Bianchi Infinito: 560 VTT, 185 integrated
Merckx EMX 1: 567 VTT, 193 integrated
Specialized Roubaix: 565 VTT, 190 integrated

Given that to do a comparison between integrated and non integrated you have to subtract 28mm as well none of the Sportive bikes are exactly what I am looking for

Also none of them have clearance for tyres > 25mm or mudguards

rolf_f

vorsprung wrote:

Rolf, you are looking for a slightly more racey bike than me

Sort of true - my leg length means I'm after a Sportive frame to give me me a racey, non sportivish position. I've nothing against Sportive riding positions; it's just that there aren't any bikes that give me that option because they wouldn't work (knees would clash with bars.....)

I think that Setavento is miles off anything non bespoke that I have found!

paul_smith_srcc

vorsprung wrote:

....Also none of them have clearance for tyres > 25mm or mudguards...

Bikes with a 'Sportive' style set up that can take guards and 700 x 25c tyres are often called ‘audax’ as apposed to ‘Sportive’ bikes; although similar there are subtle differences.

Where as race bikes are set up to be very stiff, audax and sportive will be set up to offer slightly more comfort, for example chain and seat stays on a race bike will be large and straight, by comparison audax and sportive bikes will often have slimmer shaped chain and seat stays to allow for an element of comfort. Most Audax bikes have a 73 degree Seat, 72 degree head, (Sportive and race will normally be 73/73) with slightly larger clearances for slightly larger tyres than a race bike with space for mudguards, as you can see the seat tube angles are similar to what you would find on a full-on race bike, whereas the head tube will have a slightly shallower angle to give a bit more comfort and offer stability if a light load is carried; yet they are still set up provide a fast ride, I only notice a difference over a race bike when sprinting/climbing out of the saddle, cruising in the saddle it will feel much closer. Some Audax frames will be same 73/73 geometry as a race bike but again with larger clearances, a traditional steel frame builder will still often build like that.

My personal take on this is that I have found that those who want a bike they can keep for best and to an extent afford to be precious with, will often decide for a ‘Sportive’ set up, especially if they do not need to take luggage or weather proof the bike then these bikes are a very good choice. Sportive bikes are also a popular choice for those who although they may not actually compete in race events, still like to use their cycling as an opportunity for a work out, they want a bike set for this high work rate and give near full on race bike performance, they want to look and feel like a racer to inspire them to achieve their goals, yet still have an element of comfort. This style of rider and riding is extremely popular; it is no surprise that as such the growth in this style of bike has grown to cater for this demand.

Those who decide to go for the ‘Audax’ set up will often do so as although they do want similar performance, they also want to weatherproof the bike and perhaps take light luggage, as many will use this style of bike for light touring. Quite often competitive racing riders will use an ‘Audax’ bike as their winter training bike, they will then have a best bike, or bikes for summer use. Although this style of bike is popular they are not sold in such high numbers as Sportive bikes, especially in Europe, normally it is the smaller more specialist manufacturers that cater for the Audax and to an certain extent a UK specific market, as it is in the UK that Audax bikes are the most popular, Europeans are inclined to ride ‘Sportive’ style bikes, as such this is the main reason the larger manufacturers concentrate on their ‘Sportive’ range and many offer little in the way of an audax specific bike.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk