Group Rides: help or hindrance

Toks

I'm pretty much a billy no mates when it comes to training/riding and the only time I really ride in groups is at races. My average training ride is 90minutes. Just for a change I sent an email to one of my local clubs and asked if I could come along to one of their Sunday Club runs. Once it was established I wasn't a newbie 13mph Audax type rider I got the go ahead. The ride itself was great: 70miles at 18.5mph on gentle rolling terrain.

Thoughts!
1. Great fun and very sociable; but it was 5 hours of my valuable time. :shock:
2. Lots of time sitting comfortably on wheels; but waiting for 3 separate punctures, dropped riders and route changes
3. I don't really need to do group rides
4. There's lots of freewheeling and effortless pedal tapping even at an av of 18mph
5. Good for newbies; good for non competitive types; good for the social element.
6. Probably not a very effective way to train for experienced time constrained competitive types

Toks

sorry, on reflection this should probably be in the training forum

dodgy

Interesting topic, for me anyway. I don't tend to go on group rides, it's for a fairly selfish reason really. I find that if you go out with a group (and the bigger it gets the worse it gets), every time a rider has a puncture or other mechanical, you essentially all suffer the same problem. So the chances of having a problem on a ride is increased for every additional rider.
I ride on my own, get the occasional problem and sort it myself.

Like I said, selfish.

gsk82

you could do to find a small group of decent riders or a chaingang. i go out with a club if i can't really be bothered, if i want a training ride i go out by myself

simon t

i used to ride alot of clubrides and general riding upto about 15 hrs a week.

i went far quicker on 4-6hrs of quality training and havnt got divorced either

Toks

gsk82 wrote:

you could do to find a small group of decent riders or a chaingang. i go out with a club if i can't really be bothered, if i want a training ride i go out by myself

Yep, I agree. The chain gang is a different animal all together of course and a perfect for race preparation

MikeWW

Depends on the Group
I much prefer riding with others but the guys tend to be quick and keep you on your toes
Wouldn't want to be doing the slower rides you describe though

markos1963

Most club rides tend to be social affairs and therefore not so good for training unless you're just building up base endurance. Most clubs though run a chaingang(ours is thurs evenings) and that is a different kettle of fish, averages of over 22mph and if dropped you're on your own.

jibberjim

There's two things that make group riding invaluable that are tough to do alone.

The long all out Anaerobic efforts and VO2max efforts - these require huge amounts of recovery in between 20 minutes easy pedalling maybe to hit your 1 or 2 or 5 minute powers. On a club run this becomes bearable as you have the company to chat with whilst you're doing the recovery part. You ride socially with everyone until you hit the own pace time (generally a hill of course) where you get to absolutely kill yourself and hit close to max powers.

And as others have said the short 1 hour race simulation/chaingang ride, with recovery/attack intervals close to and above threshold, just too tough to do without external simulation.

If you just ride with others and ride around easy then sure it's a long boring waste of time, but if you use the people to help your training it's great. Those short duration efforts are really tough, most people can maybe do some intervals on a trainer, but they tend to degenerate into relatively poor aerobic workouts as you don't take long enough on the recovery due to boredom.

To add, I went from an 8:30 Box Hill to 5:46, and a 60+minute 3LC to 50:05 with a lot of my training based around the club run.

Toks

It's definitley not my intention to bash club runs - as I said I do enjoy them. However given that 'sustainable/threshold power' is the key component to success in endurance cycling your "typical club run" may well be compromising your threshold development especially if you're a 6-8 hours per week guy and the club run is your main ride of the week

In your case Jim I 'd rather suggest you bring more to the party than you're average club cyclist - your a competitive spirit and determination would sooner or later have shown results. Long before the Cevelo and the power tap my mate George Brent (Addiscombe) was still stronger than average rider even on his big old steel machine that he used to ride a few years ago.

I find those key anaerobic efforts (club run power surges) you mention are quickly dialed in after a few chain gang rides or the first 2/3 races. But if you haven't got the right size engine in the first place you'll struggle to match/cope with those above threshold efforts. After all once you start burning a few matches its good old threshold power that determines how much longer you can stay in the game for.

joeyhalloran

I find they are useful for good base mile or when you need to abit of a break from the hardcore intervals/pushing yourself/racing. I also find that if I go with a group much better than me, it can be quite hard to keep up, especially on the hills. Saying this, I haven't done many group rides at all this year, and my TT times have dropped by quite a bit and my racing performance and general strength on the bike has gone up. I think a good balance of the easier care free group rides, the hardcore training with others (chaingangs and endurance rides) and quality solo effort is the best for me.

jibberjim

Toks wrote:

if you're a 6-8 hours per week guy and the club run is your main ride of the week

The overall intensity of the ride is so low though (if you ride it as I suggested and not try to do balls out all ride and end up in a zone 3 all day kind of guy) that whilst it's many hours, it's not much volume. Of course if you're time limited then it's not good use of time - but are you really time limited on a sunday morning?

Toks wrote:

Long before the Cevelo and the power tap my mate George Brent (Addiscombe) was still stronger than average rider even on his big old steel machine that he used to ride a few years ago.

I can still out sprint him at the end of a 44 mile TT (of course the fact I was on an R3 and he was on in a full TTsetup and he rode it 8 odd minutes faster than me is irrelevant I'm sure) But mostly I disagree with the average club cyclist thing, I'd say I pretty much am an average club cyclist, just one who's got plenty of time to train (averaging over 10 hours a week throughout the year, + 2 long training camps a year etc.) and has a pretty good idea of how to train that works for me. Of course everyone is different and what works for me, may not work for you.

Toks wrote:

I find those key anaerobic efforts (club run power surges) you mention are quickly dialed in after a few chain gang rides or the first 2/3 races.

This is what I'd dispute, well not completely, but in those conditions it's near impossible to hit even 90% of your max power for the 1-3 minute durations, indeed 80% is more realistic, so whilst you will be doing some training of them in races/chain gangs the fact that the majority of the workout is close to threshold will seriously limit your ability to stress the systems. Of course all races are dictated by aerobic threshold (which is why the chaingang or a 3LC is much more important to your training) but it's not the only thing to improve and particularly ignoring VO2max work will make your threshold work rather pointless.

VO2max is very trainable when new to training, and not as trainable after, however it is still trainable, but threshold tends towards a relatively fixed max percentage of VO2max and whilst you can improve it up to that max percentage it gets progressively harder and harder to improve. Raising your VO2max will raise where the threshold work can take you.

The reason you don't get much VO2max training in a chaingang is you simply can't, you descend too rapidly to threshold as that is ultimately all you can deliver for any duration longer than a ~6 minutes.

So the questsion for me boils down to, do you believe it's useful to do some training at 650 watts for 1 minute vs 500watt 1 minute efforts from a chaingang, or 430 vs 360 5 minute watts. Personally I believe there are adaptations to be had training at those higher powers - which are typical differences of what I can do isolated and in a race, despite the race perhaps being considered more motivation as I'm generally getting dropped or attacking when putting out those numbers.

The limit when I'm doing the lower watts is almost certainly oxygen delivery, but that doesn't mean just accepting the lower watts is the best way to train it if it was I might aswell stay at threshold the whole time.

Toks

jibberjim wrote:

Of course if you're time limited then it's not good use of time - but are you really time limited on a Sunday morning? .

If you can get the same or better results in half the time then... . There's DIY, watching Match of the Day repeats, breakfast in bed with the Missus etc

jibberjim wrote:

But mostly I disagree with the average club cyclist thing, I'd say I pretty much am an average club cyclist, just one who's got plenty of time to train (averaging over 10 hours a week throughout the year, + 2 long training camps a year etc.) and has a pretty good idea of how to train that works for me.

Er...precisely and for those reasons you're not the average club cyclist. He may ride a similar bike to you but I'd suggests he'd probably average 26-28mins in a flat 10mile TT (230watts perhaps) and wouldn't be able to blast up Box Hill in less than six minutes. Your 320watt FT puts that one to bed nicely, don't you think

jibberjim wrote:

This is what I'd dispute, well not completely, but in those conditions it's near impossible to hit even 90% of your max power for the 1-3 minute durations, indeed 80% is more realistic, so whilst you will be doing some training of them in races/chain gangs the fact that the majority of the workout is close to threshold will seriously limit your ability to stress the systems.

Perhaps, but anaerobic efforts are not the most significant factor when it comes to racing except for some degree in very tough crits (palace). Hence even an average amount of L6 power will suffice in most races. On my training circuits I do have section where I'll give it everything and then some for 30-45 secs. If I'm ever to be a decent 2nd cat I will need to address this more specifically perhaps

jibberjim wrote:

Of course all races are dictated by aerobic threshold (which is why the chain gang or a 3LC is much more important to your training) but it's not the only thing to improve and particularly ignoring VO2max work will make your threshold work rather pointless.

VO2max is very trainable when new to training, and not as trainable after, however it is still trainable, but threshold tends towards a relatively fixed max percentage of VO2max and whilst you can improve it up to that max percentage it gets progressively harder and harder to improve. Raising your VO2max will raise where the threshold work can take you../

Indeed i agree with all this

So how does Mr "I-wanna-ride-the-Marmotte Man" with his "200wattFT" training on 6-8 hours weekly prepare for such a sportive? He loves his comfortable 18mph club runs on a Saturday with his club mates. In fact after four hours it 'feels' pretty fatiguing. Yes there are a handful of anaerobic bursts which have our friend gasping but truth be told if thats the meat and potatoes of his training diet he's gonna be in trouble on his big day, proabably long before Alpe D'uez

jibberjim

Toks wrote:

breakfast in bed with the Missus

But she's on the club run!

toks wrote:

Er...precisely and for those reasons you're not the average club cyclist. Your 320watt FT puts that one to bed nicely, don't you think

No, 'cos 2 years ago I was all of those things, I'm still average club cyclists - no specific talent, new to the sport etc. etc. I'm just what happens after you do the training.

toks wrote:

Perhaps, but anaerobic efforts are not the most significant factor when it comes to racing except for some degree in very tough crits (palace).

I'd say Palace was the most Aerobic, not anaerobic - because you're continously working, there's zero rest, what you're confusing with anaerobic efforts is about recovery, not about the actual anaerobic ability, it's still about the ability to get enough oxygen into the system so you've recovered enough to go up the hill again. Milland Hill would likely be a more appropriate place to see where actual anaerobic limits might come in - where sitting in for all but the hill is pretty trivial, but the hill can kill you (although the pack's likely big enough you can surf it pretty easy other than the finish)

Toks wrote:

So how does Mr "I-wanna-ride-the-Marmotte Man" with his "200wattFT" training on 6-8 hours weekly prepare for such a sportive? He loves his comfortable 18mph club runs on a Saturday with his club mates. In fact after four hours it 'feels' pretty fatiguing.

A long time out from the event get out of the 18mph group, stop looking at average speeds and go out with the group you can sit in trivially group doing 4-5 big efforts - at less than 3 w/kg he'll almost certainly have big VO2max gains to be had, and that's where the biggest bang for your training time will be had at this point. If he has HR, he needs to be in Zone 1 and Zone 5+ only during these rides, and he needs to find 25+ minutes a week in those zones however he likes, the club run makes it pretty easy for the reasons I said originally, he still gets the pleasure of the club mates, but he's now also getting good training.

Supplement that with 3LC's all the time (or some other similar threshold workout)

Nearer the event, his VO2max will be nearer a realistic peak so those vo2max efforts can be dropped instead he needs to make sure he's comfortable with the time in saddle and actual course efforts. For the time in saddle a club run is good, for the race simulation, he'll have more trouble, but a club run with like minded folk involving 40+minute threshold efforts as a chaingang or whatever broken up with some easy riding will do a pretty good job.

He should be able to get his threshold w/kg up to 3.5 between now and the marmotte without much trouble at all.

oldwelshman

The rides are uselful. I use them for building up endurance for track racing.
If I do not do long steady rides I find my times during traing efforst on th etrack tail off if I havent got decent base/endurance miles in my legs.
I use local circuit races midweek to try to help training but there are too short at 1hr plus 5 laps.
Too many of those short races and I loose endurance.

DaveyL

jibberjim wrote:

Supplement that with 3LC's all the time (or some other similar threshold workout)

Sorry for the hijack but what's a 3LC workout?

phil s

IMO, club runs are an enjoyable diversion but for proper training better to be out on your own... and better still to be out with between one and three other guys who are strong so you push each other.

jibberjim

DaveyL wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

Supplement that with 3LC's all the time (or some other similar threshold workout)

Sorry for the hijack but what's a 3LC workout?

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

DaveyL

D'oh!

Anonymous

Club runs are okay for bringing you on, etiquette, riding in groups and for a newbie this is good stuff. thing is, once you get fitter you can still go on club rides and train on your own as well, its all choice.

Toks

jibberjim wrote:

But she's on the club run!.

Doh! of course she is. Man these average club riders. Next you'll be telling me wifey's a 1st cat .

jibberjim wrote:

I'd say Palace was the most Aerobic, not anaerobic - because you're continously working, there's zero rest, what you're confusing with anaerobic efforts is about recovery, not about the actual anaerobic ability, it's still about the ability to get enough oxygen into the system so you've recovered enough to go up the hill again. Milland Hill would likely be a more appropriate place to see where actual anaerobic limits might come in - where sitting in for all but the hill is pretty trivial, but the hill can kill you (although the pack's likely big enough you can surf it pretty easy other than the finish).

I'd be interested in seeing some wattage data at Palace. I always thought those repititve anaerobic surges on the climb were responsible for numerous peeps getting dropped. This normally happens the first few times even for some regular racers. I'm happy to concede its all down to threshold then and perhaps rusty bunch skills

Toks wrote:

So how does Mr "I-wanna-ride-the-Marmotte Man" with his "200wattFT" training on 6-8 hours weekly prepare for such a sportive? He loves his comfortable 18mph club runs on a Saturday with his club mates. In fact after four hours it 'feels' pretty fatiguing.

jibberjim wrote:

A long time out from the event get out of the 18mph group,stop looking at average speeds and go out with the group you can sit in trivially group doing 4-5 big efforts - at less than 3 w/kg he'll almost certainly have big VO2max gains to be had, and that's where the biggest bang for your training time will be had at this point.

I agree in essence with the reduction of the big 18mph group rides. I'm not sure what you mean by 'trivially' or how realistic it will be for him/her to do the rest

jibberjim wrote:

Supplement that with 3LC's all the time (or some other similar threshold workout)

+1

jibberjim wrote:

Nearer the event, his VO2max will be nearer a realistic peak so those vo2max efforts can be dropped instead he needs to make sure he's comfortable with the time in saddle and actual course efforts. For the time in saddle a club run is good, for the race simulation, he'll have more trouble, but a club run with like minded folk involving 40+minute threshold efforts as a chaingang or whatever broken up with some easy riding will do a pretty good job.He should be able to get his threshold w/kg up to 3.5 between now and the marmotte without much trouble at all.

Yep, optimally I'd suggest he'd still need to keep up those pure threshold sessions too

maryka

I've been drafted into this thread as the 1st cat wifey.

First off, I think club runs are perfect for those weekends where you aren't racing and you just want a nice long unstructured social ride with some fun/challenging stuff thrown in (hills, a bit of chaingang, a little roadsign sprint here and there, etc.). I generally don't use club runs for training unless it's the training ride with lots of fast people (not to be confused with a one-hour chaingang). I can see however, if you have a family and other non-cycling obligations that a club run would not be the best use of your time. It's purely a hedonistic use of training time.

The point that Jim is making is that you can go do a 2-3 hour hilly ride on your own and try to work on Vo2max but inevitably you will get bored out there and what was zone 1/2 will turn into a zone 3 tempo ride or worse, a zone 4 "I'm late getting back, it's starting to rain" thrashing. Which is all fine and good but not doing the job of working on Vo2max. There's something about riding with people in a non-chaingaing group that makes you slow down and not care that you're pootling along, that voice in your head that's always there on a solo ride saying "why are you going so slow" disappears. Then hammering the hills knowing you'll get to the top and wait for everyone again.

Anyway, here are some Palace stats from the one 3/4 race I did compared to a tough women's race there a month before. Note that all the numbers are lower except for the 5 and 10 second ones, where the men's race killed me in the corners. In the women's I was chasing madly to get back on and really toeing the line of anaerobic a few times, the 30 sec number is quite high. But in the men's I actually found it easy to hang with the group on the climb once I'd come out of the descent and blind corner falling off the back of the bunch and spent the first half of the hill getting back on. The top half of the hill I felt I like could have ridden straight through everyone if they hadn't been strewn about the track. Cursed myself every time for not moving up the bunch more! In fact if I'd started near the front and managed to hold that, I might have been able to get in a break.... well probably not!

3/4 Palace race
Entire workout (195 watts):
Duration: 52:12 (52:28 )
Work: 612 kJ
TSS: 90.5 (intensity factor 1.02)
Norm Power: 245
VI: 1.25
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 714 195 watts
Heart Rate: 108 182 168 bpm

Peak 5s:
Avg
Power: 621 watts
Heart Rate: 165 bpm

Peak 10s:
Avg
Power: 554 watts
Heart Rate: 171 bpm

Peak 20s:
Avg
Power: 464 watts
Heart Rate: 170 bpm

Peak 30s:
Avg
Power: 412 watts
Heart Rate: 172 bpm

Peak 1min:
Avg
Power: 332 watts
Heart Rate: 176 bpm

Peak 2min:
Avg
Power: 243 watts
Heart Rate: 176 bpm

women's Palace race
Entire workout (206 watts):
Duration: 43:45 (43:52)
Work: 540 kJ
TSS: 82.5 (intensity factor 1.063)
Norm Power: 250
VI: 1.22
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 684 206 watts
Heart Rate: 100 184 171 bpm

Peak 5s:
Avg
Power: 618 watts
Heart Rate: 157 bpm

Peak 10s:
Avg
Power: 533 watts
Heart Rate: 157 bpm

Peak 20s:
Avg
Power: 491 watts
Heart Rate: 168 bpm

Peak 30s:
Avg
Power: 468 watts
Heart Rate: 173 bpm

Peak 1min:
Avg
Power: 348 watts
Heart Rate: 173 bpm

Peak 2miin:
Avg
Power: 299 watts
Heart Rate: 164 bpm

Toks

Hmm very interesting, thanks Maryka. I really will have to get a powermeter this winter

maryka

Toks wrote:

Hmm very interesting, thanks Maryka. I really will have to get a powermeter this winter

They are well worth it! It's quite cool to go back and compare races and stuff, for two seasons now that I've had one since April 2009. I don't think I even look at details like race speed or HR anymore...

Btw there were moanings that the 3/4 race I did at Palace may have been an "easier" one than average. I stayed with the bunch pretty well (suffered, no doubt, but stayed with it and at the back no less!) but in the weeks that followed, a few other strong girls who race Palace also did the 3/4 and every one of them got dropped before the end. So it could be that the usual 3/4 races are a bit harder. Still, it's not anaerobic that drops people, it's simply lack of fitness or low FTP (or in the case of the girls, bad positioning and getting gapped on the corners and downhill).

Pross

I'm finding them very useful at the moment. In the past they were generally a nice social way to spend a Sunday although occassionally I'd get caught out by one and suffer. Now, thanks to a combination of a lack of fitness and it appears to me the runs being slighty faster, I find them a very good training ride as I have to push hard to stay with quicker riders for as long as possible. I've found that on one club run the other week I got myself up a hill that I probably wouldn't have had I been riding alone.

That said, as this is on the racing thread I assume my current level of fitness is way below that of most on here. I still think club runs have their place at some level for everyone whether as a recovery ride or to build endurance but most importantly to make a ride enjoyable. Most of those that I ride with will be getting their actual training done seperately as individuals or small groups.

Thick Tester

Group runs are essential for base training and moral binding and are the fabric of our sport, Anyone who suggests otherwise needs a frame fit pump through the thorax.

Tom Butcher

I reckon group rides are pretty much an essential for most people. Some can probably put the miles in on their own but for most of us it's easier to train consistently if it's enjoyable and as social animals that means going out with other riders.

Toks

Thick Tester wrote:

Group runs are essential for base training and moral binding and are the fabric of our sport, Anyone who suggests otherwise needs a frame fit pump through the thorax.

Er... as a number of posters have outlined, clearly group rides have a role to play in the riding/training repertoire of the competitive & club cyclist. No body's saying you shouldn't do them - in fact, I agree you should do them( especially as a newbie).

The point I'm making is once you've learned group riding skills and cycling etiquette, if your time is limited, and you've self motivated and of a decent fitness level are they helping or hindering you. Oh and if you do fit the above profile to say that group rides are "essential" lines up nicely behind all that other guff I was told as a new cyclist :roll:
1. Ride in a low gear all winter or you'll blow your capillaries
2. Start weight training if you want to ride your bike faster
3. Always stop at every feed station on sportives
4. Don't do intervals in the winter

Oh and finally, in my experience of seven years of club riding, even in the winter, I rarely see the stronger testers on club runs. Why is that? :roll:

Robstar24

used to go out with a club a lot, but less so since the new baby arrived 3 months ago, once that happens it's a case of training when you can, which often means early mornings on weekends (ie: 7am-11am), whereas the club never meet till 9.45, don't roll out till 10am and arent usually home until 2.30 pm, and the lot i we :P nt out with always seemed to do very similar rides, whereas on my own i do exactly what and where i like, mixing in hilly with flat rides.

the above said, i rode with the university club while i was at uni and it was brilliant, but we bothered to vary the rides a bit.

club runs are great fun, but not ideal for those with small children at home. dont really want to turn the wifey into a cycling widow, otherwise i think i'd end up with more time for cycling than i really want :P

jgsi

Toks wrote:

Thick Tester wrote:

Group runs are essential for base training and moral binding and are the fabric of our sport, Anyone who suggests otherwise needs a frame fit pump through the thorax.

Er... as a number of posters have outlined, clearly group rides have a role to play inand finally, in my experience of seven years of club riding, even in the winter, I rarely see the stronger testers on club runs. Why is that? :roll:

It's a dastardly plot/dirty tricks in order to humiliate during the racing season.