Womens race distances

phreak

I was wondering today why it is that ladies pro races tend to be so short in distance? Emma Pooley won a race today that was 116km long. Just seems very short for a one day race. Plenty of girls ride 100 mile sportives so it can't be that they can't do the distances.

Anyone know?

Kléber

Because in a men's race you can do this

But for the women's race you can't line the route with portaloos.

Buckled_Rims

Then the UCI must allow the weight of a shewee to be included in it's overall weight of the bike!

BikingBernie

phreak wrote:

I was wondering today why it is that ladies pro races tend to be so short in distance? Emma Pooley won a race today that was 116km long. Just seems very short for a one day race. Plenty of girls ride 100 mile sportives so it can't be that they can't do the distances.

Because, given the huge gap in the ability of the elite men and women, if you made women's events 250 km long rather than 100 they would be about as fast, and about as exciting to watch, as the average sportive? As things stand elite women's RR's are already slower than elite male events, even with the reduced distance.

Similarly, plenty of third cats and non-racers can ride a 100 mile sportive or an even longer Audax event, but third cat races aren't generally 100 miles plus because being able to 'ride' 100 miles and being able to 'race' 100 miles are two very different things.

At times, I think that having different distances for male and female events (as with the womens' 500m track TT versus the mens' kilo) is actually motivated by a desire to make comparisons difficult, so obscuring the fact that most elite female competitions could be won by the average second cat amateur male.

Kléber

BB, that's simply not the case any more. Yes, the level of womens racing was appalling in the past, fitness levels were bad and the tactics looked like something from a Carry On film.

But that's changed for the better. For example riders like Vos, Pooley or Cooke can and do take part in mens elite races from time to time. Just last weekend Pooley did the Alpenbrevet sportive and finished 4th. Yes there's a difference but few "average second cat amateur males" would get the better of the pro women these days.

Le Commentateur

But there is a greater range of ability in the female peloton than you get with the elite men. You'd have a small number reaching the end of a 180-200km race in a competitive position, with masses of stragglers and/or DNFs.

BikingBernie

Kléber wrote:

riders like Vos, Pooley or Cooke can and do take part in mens elite races from time to time.

Pooley and Cooke rode the 2/3/4 cat Ras Cymru just before Cooke won the Olympic RR and they couldn't win that, with Cooke coming in 5th and Pooley winning the final stage which finished at the top of a long climb. Over on Veloriders one of the riders in that event said that he had talked with Cooke during the event and asked her how it compared with elite womens' racing. Apparently she said that she had found the level of the Ras to be comparable. I can't see Pooley or Cooke event lasting the distance in a Premier calender event, let alone a Pro event.

There is also the matter of physiology and power output. Pooley apparently weighs 50kg. If her threshold power output is right up there in the high figures for international elite women, at 5.2 w/kg, this would give her a threshold power output of just 260 watts. When I was a middling second cat my threshold power was around 320 watts at 74 kg so Pooley would have probably seen me off on a long climb. However, on the flat, in a TT, when attacking and so on she would have given me no problems at all, never mind those who gave me a hard time.

The theoretical maximal threshold power output for elite women is around 5.69 w / kg for women, so even if she was right at the very top of the scale at 50 kg this would still give her just 285 watts. A lower figure than this also ties in with her relatively slow TT performances. When she came second in the 14.6 mile Olympic TT she averaged just 24.8 Mph and when she won the Grand Boucle Feminin TT, which was 11.25 miles, she averaged 26.8 Mph, even when fully kitted out with all the technology Cervello could muster. When I was a 'middling second cat' I used to regularly do 20 minute 10 mile TT's on a standard road bike with clip-on tri bars and no aero helmet or other aids - averaging over 29 Mph.

Kléber wrote:

Just last weekend Pooley did the Alpenbrevet sportive and finished 4th.

She did a very good ride in an event that made the most of her strongest talent - climbing - with her averaging 15.2 Mph, but that is hardly racing, and she was riding the middle distance event when the hard-core male sportive riders were riding the main event.

Kléber wrote:

few "average second cat amateur males" would get the better of the pro women these days.

Some still would though. Perhaps it would now be more accurate to say that most elite women's races could be won by a 'better than average' second cat male.

William H

Why should they be longer? It's not like they all end up as bunch sprints - in fact, they seem to break up more than the men.

DaveyL

Pooley's 5.2 W/kg vs your 4.3 W/kg and she would "probably" see you off on a long climb. How generous of you to give her that one!

Also, when talking about the flats, TTs etc., it is W/m2 not just Watts, so you would need to know something about your relative frontal areas. At 5 ft 2 and 50 kg I suspect her CdA is rather small.

The Olympics TT course had a fairly big climb on it too.

Another fine cherry picking effort, chapeau sir!

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Pooley's 5.2 W/kg vs your 4.3 W/kg and she would "probably" see you off on a long climb. How generous of you to give her that one!

I said that because a lot depends on how the racing develops. Just look at the mountain stages of the Tour where you often see 80 kg roulers riding alongside the climbing specialists.

On a short climb where maximal and short-term power are more important the advantage could well swing the other way, especially given that it is in these areas where male competitors tend to have the biggest advantage over female competitors. Same applies in male racing of course, with the 'pure climbers' being outpaced on the climbs of a race like the Tour of Flanders by those riders who have the edge in terms of maximal and short-term power output.

DaveyL wrote:

Also, when talking about the flats, TTs etc., it is W/m2 not just Watts, so you would need to know something about your relative frontal areas. At 5 ft 2 and 50 kg I suspect her CdA is rather small.

Your point being? With a small frontal area you will indeed go faster for the same power output, but that Pooley does not go faster than she does, even given her small frontal area, further indicates that her threshold power output is actually quite modest.

DaveyL

Geraint Thomas only managed a low 21 in today's 16.7 km TT at Eneco. I doubt he'd be able to hang with the middling 2nd cats...

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Geraint Thomas only managed a low 21 in today's 16.7 km TT at Eneco. I doubt he'd be able to hang with the middling 2nd cats...

Then again, racing around the streets of Genk is probably a tad more difficult than riding on the open road. What is certain is that when I was riding a time trial and elite women were also riding it was rare for any of them to get within a couple of minutes of my time. Even the mighty Yvonne McGregor's 10 mile competition record was slower than the sort of times I did week in and week out.

How long do you think Nicole Cooke would last in a Premier calender event? As far as I recall no women have even pressed to be allowed to ride such events, which might well be significant in itself.

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

How long do you think Nicole Cooke would last in a Premier calender event? As far as I recall no women have even pressed to be allowed to ride such events, which might well be significant in itself.

It might be but then again it might not. What point exactly are you trying to make? Do I think the top women pros are as fast as the males? No, of course not. Are they at the level of "middling" male 2nd cats? I think they are well above that.

You have almost provided the answer yourself, by attributing a world-class W/kg at FTP to Emma Pooley. The TrainingPeaks power profiling (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx) suggests a W/kg at FTP of 5.02-5.69 for a world class female pro. With Pooley near the top of that band, the same chart suggests she would be equivalent to an excellent male first cat/lower level domestic pro. So from that, one might conclude she would stand a good chance of at least hanging in there in premier calendar races. Of course, the style and length of racing are quite different, but she and others could adapt over time.

Also consider very slight male cyclists like Alexandre Bocharov. At 54 kg, he might have a simialr FTP to yours, of around 330 W (how was yours measured by the way?). Would you expect to stay with him in the flats/TTs/attacks? I bet his W/m2 is much greater than yours would have been.

Elite female endurance athletes can compete with some of the top males - Chrissie Wellington's new world record at the ironman distance race in Roth this year (8:19) put her 7th overall in the race, and even at the shorter, faster, half ironman distance, she finished 10th overall in the Timberman 70.3 race this past weekend, in a pretty stacked field.

jibberjim

DaveyL wrote:

(http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... iling.aspx) suggests a W/kg at FTP of 5.02-5.69 for a world class female pro.

Except of course there's little or no reason to believe that is anything like the upper limit, it's guesswork based on limited data - the mens upper limit is more reasonably anchored at boardman's 6.4 w/kg, but for the women there's no such convenient number. We also know that small riders tend to have higher w/kg than large ones (even amoung men your 55kg cyclist will tend to have more w/kg at threshold than your 75kg one even with the same body fat etc. Cooling potential being the most likely reason) so Pooley at the very low end of size is likely to have considerably more watts than the more typical 60-65kg woman that most older data was based on.

Last year Pooley beat Sarah Storey comfortably in the National TT, and she would've brought a ~300 watt threshold (perhaps a little less depending on how much she's improved this year) To suggest Pooley could've beaten that with 250 watts is a little laughable I think, I would suspect Pooley is also close to 300watts, and yes that makes it tough to get to a 20minute 10. But then, that's why Cancellara wins TT championships and not Schleck, absolute power matters.

Comparing the Ras (which I did this year, along with a 52kg woman with a ~250watt threshold) to womens pro racing mostly ignores the nature of the problem, it's not threshold that causes the problem, it's the shorter durations due to the different nature of the male and female power curves. So it may well be that a woman in a mens 2nd cat race will suffer similar problems as in a pro womens field, but that doesn't mean a 2nd cat man could survive in the womens pro field - they'll have problems in different areas as they'll slowly get gapped with sustained efforts, unlike the women who are getting gapped on short intense efforts.

BikingBernie

jibberjim wrote:

that doesn't mean a 2nd cat man could survive in the womens pro field - they'll have problems in different areas as they'll slowly get gapped with sustained efforts, unlike the women who are getting gapped on short intense efforts.

Only if those efforts are uphill. Most second cat men will have more power than someone like Emma Pooley, and this will give them the advantage on the flat. As you say 'absolute power matters'. Not all elite women are a lightly built as Pooley either, which is why her climbing ability is rather exceptional.

jibberjim

BikingBernie wrote:

Only if those efforts are uphill.

So yes, a cat 2 man may well do well in a womens Tour of Qatar, but that's not really relevant as the big womens races are ones like the Giro Donne...

disquieting_museeuws

I was interested to see last year that Christiane Soeder rode the 26km time trial of the Tour of Austria as an extra 'competitor' before the men - she would have finished 63rd out of 111, 2.45 behind the winner Moorenhout (who beat Tuft & Bodrogi). I was amazed she did this well, even accounting for the fact that she hadn't ridden the rest of the Tour, and that most of the men would have been riding to get inside the time limit only.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/61st-t ... -7/results

mroli

Sarah Storey rode past me on a hill in Cornwall as if I wasn't there.

Actually, that is unfair. As she rode past me, she gave me a cheery hello and a great big smile. I don't think she actually waved. She was also wearing her WC kit including her WC catlike helmet and looked fricking cool. She had a train of 4 blokes grimly holding onto her wheel.

I'm not sure what the point is, but I'm a long way from being both an average Cat 2 racer and a female paralympic world champion and gold medal holder.

maryka

I did the Ras this year (Jibberjim is being a bit generous with my w/kg though ) and I remember at the time wondering if it was comparable to a women's pro race. I got dropped every day but the last one (a flattish stage with that massive climb at the finish) and every time it was on a steep power climb where I just couldn't put out the same 30-60 sec power as the guys and then being too light was completely gone on the descent that followed.

A few weeks later I did a National Series stage race, the Essex Giro (short ITT, 60-min hilly crit and 90km hilly road race), and finished 5th overall right in the same neighbourhood as a handful of top UK riders who had been racing the UCI 2.2 Tour Feminin for Rapha in the Czech Republic while I was in Wales for the Ras. So I'd be comfortable in a 2.2 pro women's race, which of course is a level below Pooley's 2.1 races like the Giro Donne. I have no problem hanging with an average men's 2/3 (I don't consider the Ras to be "average" as it's so unique and climber-oriented) except that at my size it's a constant effort to stay near the front as the accelerations and surges and corners and descents are what cause me problems. But for bigger riders like Cooke or Storey, I think hanging in the bunch in a Premier Calendar would not be that hard at all.

I think the sad state of women's cycling is that the fields are weaker, with fewer really strong riders, a wider span of fitness and ability, and marked by cat 4-style riding (the race develops by attrition as women chase anything that goes up the road) more than the typical pro men's "let the break get away and either chase them down for a sprint finish or don't bother". Team dynamics between women are a whole different ballgame as well compared to men's, especially as there's virtually no money in it and individual glory is rated much higher than teamwork and domestique stuff. At least, that's what I've experienced in the highest level of women's racing here in the UK, and from reading various other accounts including Cervelo's race reports for Pooley and others, that's what seems to happen there too.

Fwiw my teammate did the 135km Barry Elcome race last year as he was chasing his Elite license and Dani King was in that race and did fine according to him.
"To finish off, respect to Dani King of the Vision 1 team who was always near the front of the bunch and putting a lot of blokes to shame in getting involved with the action!"

BikingBernie

maryka wrote:

I did the Ras this year ...I got dropped every day but the last one... A few weeks later I did a National Series stage race, the Essex Giro... and finished 5th overall right in the same neighbourhood as a handful of top UK riders who had been racing the UCI 2.2 Tour Feminin for Rapha in the Czech Republic

Which seems to fit right in with what I have said about elite women's racing being comparable with domestic second cat events such as the Ras.

maryka wrote:

for bigger riders like Cooke or Storey, I think hanging in the bunch in a Premier Calendar would not be that hard at all.

Until they take on the challenge, we will never know. Personally I think they would be out of the back as soon as the big guns really stretched their legs, much like even a good second cat would be.

maryka wrote:

my teammate did the 135km Barry Elcome race last year as he was chasing his Elite license and Dani King was in that race and did fine according to him.

What position did she come in?

Of course, it's great to see women racing. I just don't understand why some think it is necessary to pretend that the elite women are even in the same ball park as the elite men. Given the huge differences between second cat, first cat, domestic elite, premier calendar, international and professional male racing, it seems ridiculous to claim that riders who can't win a 2/3/4 RR like the Ras, such as Nicole Cooke, nonetheless are on a par with premier calendar riders, or even higher.

Steve2020

Kléber wrote:

Because in a men's race you can do this

But for the women's race you can't line the route with portaloos.

Women competitors in Ironman races seem to manage ok

Steve2020

Does anyone know where approximately you would rank nationally if you were a middling second cat male?

Athletics provides some useful comparison. Say, the level of talent needed to be a women's pro cyclist is the same as that needed to run 33 minutes for a 10k. About 500 British men managed that last year compared to 5 British women.

But athletics suggests it isn't the slower speeds that stops women's cycling getting equal billing - women runners are slower but women's athletics is just as popular and exciting to watch as the mens.

The women's Olympic road race was more exciting than probably 90% of Tour de France stages.

I think the low profile of women's cycling owes more to vicious circle of lack of coverage leading to lack of recognition and interest leading to a lack of coverage etc etc

frenchfighter

Interesting discussion. I wonder though whether the same difference in level between male and females is similar for other endurance sports - if it is then fine, if it isn't then it poses the interesting question of why not?

BikingBernie wrote:

When I was a 'middling second cat' I used to regularly do 20 minute 10 mile TT's on a standard road bike with clip-on tri bars and no aero helmet or other aids - averaging over 29 Mph.

That is pretty damn quick! You sure that wasn't on a false downhill with a tailwind?

Steve2020

To use another athletics comparison, say Nicole Cooke has an equivalent level of talent to Mara Yamauichi. Not sure if this is a fair comparison, but Yamauchi was 6th in the Olympic Marathon in 2008, but athletics is a much more global sport than cycling (then again the distance running talent gets spread between 5,000, 10,000 etc).

Yamauchi's marathon best is 2:23:12, a time achieved by only 13 British men in 2009. So that would suggest that only a relatively few male cyclists in the UK could win the women's Olympic road race.

But again, the comparisons are tricky because British men are bigger fish in the smaller pond of cycling compared to marathon runners. Could BikingBernie win the women's Olympic Road Race? Maybe only after a trip to Morzine...

BikingBernie

Returning to what I said earlier about the kilo vs. the women 500m TT, can anyone think of a reason why women don't do the full kilo, other than because getting them to do 500m instead makes comparisons difficult? After all, the kilo makes rather special demands on the rider that a 500m TT, or even a 750m one, simply doesn't.

Steve2020

BikingBernie wrote:

Returning to what I said earlier about the kilo vs. the women 500m TT, can anyone think of a reason why women don't do the full kilo, other than because getting them to do 500m instead makes comparisons difficult? After all, the kilo makes rather special demands on the rider that a 500m TT, or even a 750m one, simply doesn't.

Isn't it just historic sexism? The same as women not being allowed to run more than 800m, then 3,000m on the track in athletics? Cycling is more conservative than athletics and much further behind in giving equal billing to women. I can't imagine anyone women racers would mind, or any spectators be surprised, when women did the Kilo in 1:08 or whatever.

BikingBernie

frenchfighter wrote:

Interesting discussion. I wonder though whether the same difference in level between male and females is similar for other endurance sports - if it is then fine, if it isn't then it poses the interesting question of why not?

I think that there is a much bigger difference in cycling. This is partly due to the lack of depth in women's cycle racing. The other big difference is that whilst running and so on demand a pretty constant level of effort, road racing is often all about repeated maximal power efforts, a type of racing that naturally gives power-orientated male competitors a bigger advantage.

BikingBernie wrote:

When I was a 'middling second cat' I used to regularly do 20 minute 10 mile TT's on a standard road bike with clip-on tri bars and no aero helmet or other aids - averaging over 29 Mph.

frenchfighter wrote:

That is pretty damn quick! You sure that wasn't on a false downhill with a tailwind?

No, just my local club events. I was never into all this chasing around the country in search of 'float' courses. I did once, and only once, only ride on 'The Boro' in the old days of the Harrogate Festival of Cycling in the mid 70's, doing a '25' in a little over he Hour. I was only a schoolboy though.

BikingBernie

Steve2020 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Returning to what I said earlier about the kilo vs. the women 500m TT, can anyone think of a reason why women don't do the full kilo, other than because getting them to do 500m instead makes comparisons difficult? After all, the kilo makes rather special demands on the rider that a 500m TT, or even a 750m one, simply doesn't.

Isn't it just historic sexism?

Could be, and it is about time such distinctions were got rid of on the track and in time-trials. I still think that watching women 'race' 250 km would be about as exciting as watching paint dry though.

Steve2020

BikingBernie wrote:

The other big difference is that whilst running and so on demand a pretty constant level of effort, road racing is often all about repeated maximal power efforts, a type of racing that naturally gives power-orientated male competitors a bigger advantage.

I think this must be right - especially since one burst can knock someone out of the draft which makes a dramatic difference. A running race is probably most comparable to a mountain time trial - watts per kilo is probably the dominant factor whereas in cycling absolute power, not relative to body weight can often be decisive.

Steve2020

BikingBernie wrote:

Could be, and it is about time such distinctions were got rid of on the track and in time-trials. I still think that watching women 'race' 250 km would be about as exciting as watching paint dry though.

I'm sure you will be on the edge of your seat 180km into the mens World Champ road race

Could it really be that the UCI is sexist? What next?

hotoph88

I was there on Saturday and Sunday. Emma did a great ride to win dropping Vos. Have a look at the CN web site for the pictures of the men's race and you will find one with a caption that the Breton crowd were not supportive of the slow pace of the men's race. 4 laps to go and the break was at 8 minutes. 3 to go and it was at 3 minutes. The first 4 hours was a waste of everyone's life. BB, maybe you raced the whole of your 2nd cat 60 mile races but the top 10 on Sunday certainly came round at a pace I am entirely confident you could have kept up with for 4 hours, and with lap times that were comparable to the women. Only in the last 4 laps would you have come under pressure. The amateur race on Saturday morning by contrast was flat out from the gun and minute for minute provided the greatest spectacle of the 3. The question should not be about making the women's races longer but cutting out the non-race that precedes the action for the pro men. The helicopters came out for the last 3 laps of the men's and women's events. It seems that those paying for the flight time know exactly how long each actually race for, regardless of how long the race might say it is in the program.