talk to me about the daily mail

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    bails87 wrote:

    You can't run an organisation as big as the NHS with no managers.

    The Army would be useless if it was just half a million people, each with a gun. With no one to give orders, plan and organise. It's the same principle.
    Actually, that belief is being questioned by business experts.
    There is a strong case to be made for having a "proper" hierarchy, with more people doing work, and less people administering things.
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,719
    Actually, that belief is being questioned by business experts.
    There is a strong case to be made for having a "proper" hierarchy, with more people doing work, and less people administering things.
    Possibly. However, according to this, there's only around 45000 managers and senior managers. If we get rid of all of these, in order to get up to the BNP's 100000 people replaced by doctors target, there needs to be 55000 other jobs changed. This will be the people running the IT infrastructure, caterers, cleaners, etc.

    Seeing why it's a bad idea yet?
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Actually, that belief is being questioned by business experts.
    There is a strong case to be made for having a "proper" hierarchy, with more people doing work, and less people administering things.

    Sure, too many managers is a bad thing. But I don't think any business experts would say all managers can be got rid of. The amount of thought and time that goes into things like where to put ambulances when they're on standby, looking at who to target with health campaigns or deciding what to spend money on is vast. It makes sure that we can predict who will need what, and when. Which saves lives.

    Or are these business experts from the big 3 consultancy firms that paid over £1.5 million to the tories, and are now benefitting from their closing down of the National Audit Office? [/cynical] :wink:
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,719
    The health unrelated stuff:
    the BNP wrote:

    The removal of unsightly overhead power lines from beauty spots and their burial underground;
    So instead of having lines which just don't look very nice, they support digging up the countryside, costing millions and probably destroying quite a bit of wildlife and plant life instead? That's a great policy...
    The creation of a bulk transport tax regime that pushes supermarkets to supply more local and seasonal produce;
    - The encouragement of an extensive and rapid switchover to organic and low fossil fuel farming techniques;
    These measures will push up food prices, a lot. It's possible that it will make the poorest people in the country unable to afford to eat anything decent at all.
    The banning of the ritual slaughter of animals without pre-stunning, and the sale of such meat;
    This is purely to ban Halal meat, forcing any practising Muslims to either go vegetarian or leave the country. That'll be fine for you if you're ok with a government with racism as its key policy, I suppose...
    The elimination of the unhealthy, energy intensive and cruel factory farming of livestock;
    Again, food prices will be forced up. If people can afford to, it seems that they'll generally choose food which isn't factory farmed anyway. If they can't, what are they going to eat once the food within their price range is banned?
    The abolition of all “stealth taxes” and other charges on household rubbish collections.
    *yawn*
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Another reason not to like the Mail:
    The Mail and the EDL
    What if, when you talk about 'white British' mothers explicitly, and wring your hands about the number of 'white British' births, worry about white British mothers, write about 'white flight', and you talk about white people as being 'nationals', and you suggest that second-generation immigrants aren't really British, you're creating a dialogue in which people begin to believe that the only true Brit is a pale pink one? Is the Mail really an innocent bystander in this argument, or actually part of it?
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • Although the BNP have some stupid policies I particularly like some of the crime policies

    The BNP will also:

    - Make prisons more austere and make criminals serve their full sentences. Offenders will be made to understand that they are being punished and not rewarded with a state-subsidised holiday for their crimes;


    I'm all for this, seems to be too cushy in there if the press stories are anything to go by.

    - Use electronically tagged “chain gangs” to provide labour for projects such as coastal defences;

    Again - get the buggers doing something useful and actually giving back to society, it will also cut down on government spending for such projects.

    - Introduce automatic prison sentences for all repeat offenders;

    Make prisons more austere and the thought of having to go back should certainly put a few off - every little helps

    - Put police back on the streets and remove their current political correctness shackles;

    Depends on what they mean by PC. but they do need some freedom away from their restrictions. Happy holidays and all that bollocks

    - Allow victims of crime full freedom to defend themselves and their property;

    If someone breaks into my house i should be well within my rights to break his face in. If they threaten me or my family, i should be well within my rights to take a bat to him

    - Make joint custody of children the norm in divorce cases;

    Depends on the circumstances i guess

    - Grant anonymity to those accused of crimes until they are convicted;

    I'm all for this - the abuse some people must get for being accused. A friend of mine was accused of rape which he did not do but the amount of abuse he got from people was uneccessary. He was found not guilty in court.

    - Make police concentrate on real criminals and serve the public, not the government’s political aspirations.

    Sounds good to me!
    MmmBop

    Go big or go home.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    Actually, that belief is being questioned by business experts.
    There is a strong case to be made for having a "proper" hierarchy, with more people doing work, and less people administering things.

    like how the army works.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    dont get me wrong folk, i dont like the bnp, i just think some of what they say looks like good ideas.

    as soon as bnp is mentioned everyone goes to a default setting of "they are evil and racist, everything they stand for is abhorrent"

    however, i can look at the world without bigoted narrow eyes and say that yes, they are websters but there is no denying that some of what they say is good.

    im not fussed with the detail, im not fussed with the flaws all im saying is that some of what they say makes sense.

    for me it is an interesting thing to see how people react to that simple free opinion.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    north-sure wrote:
    Although the BNP have some stupid policies I particularly like some of the crime policies

    The BNP will also:

    - Make prisons more austere and make criminals serve their full sentences. Offenders will be made to understand that they are being punished and not rewarded with a state-subsidised holiday for their crimes;


    I'm all for this, seems to be too cushy in there if the press stories are anything to go by.

    I've bolded the important bit there.
    - Use electronically tagged “chain gangs” to provide labour for projects such as coastal defences;

    Again - get the buggers doing something useful and actually giving back to society, it will also cut down on government spending for such projects.
    I bet the people who build coastal defences for a living would love that idea.....
    - Introduce automatic prison sentences for all repeat offenders;

    Make prisons more austere and the thought of having to go back should certainly put a few off - every little helps

    Too right, get caught speeding twice, year in jail.
    - Put police back on the streets and remove their current political correctness shackles;

    Depends on what they mean by PC. but they do need some freedom away from their restrictions. Happy holidays and all that bollocks
    This is where papers like the mail come in. They invent "PC gone mad" stories. And people like the BNP use them to prove what's wrong with the country. By "PC" they probably mean that the police should be able to beat up black people without them getting all uppity about it.
    - Allow victims of crime full freedom to defend themselves and their property;

    If someone breaks into my house i should be well within my rights to break his face in. If they threaten me or my family, i should be well within my rights to take a bat to him
    Key word there, "defend". You're already allowed to defend yourself. Again, don't let the press trick you into thinking that if a burglar comes into your home and attacks you it's your duty to help him carry your tv out of the door and load it into his van. If the threat warranted it you'd be completely within your rights to kill him.

    also, if anyone being threatened has the right to use extreme violence, do we not end up where there's just a circle of 'legal' attacks?
    - Make joint custody of children the norm in divorce cases;

    Depends on the circumstances i guess
    Just like now then.
    - Grant anonymity to those accused of crimes until they are convicted;

    I'm all for this - the abuse some people must get for being accused. A friend of mine was accused of rape which he did not do but the amount of abuse he got from people was uneccessary. He was found not guilty in court.
    Rape's no laughing matter. Unless you're being raped by a clown.

    Again, this is something that either exists already or is being proposed by the other main parties, specifically with regards to rape.
    - Make police concentrate on real criminals and serve the public, not the government’s political aspirations.

    Sounds good to me!

    What does that even mean?! "Real criminals". Anyone who breaks the law is a criminal. I suspect the BNP view attacks on mosques and synagogues as 'not real crime' so they want to be left alone by the plod.

    Either way, it's just another meaningless phrase invented by tabloid rags to make middle class criminals (tax evaders, drink drivers, speeders etc) feel like they're not doing anything wrong.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    for me it is an interesting thing to see how people react to that simple free opinion.

    What bugs me about them is the fact that most of their policies are based on lies. Those lies are fed by the tabloids and gutter rags like the DM.

    Those lies create an image of Britain where you can't say the word "blackboard", you can't order a "black coffee", you can't put up an England flag, you have to celebrate Winterval instead of Christmas, criminals get free back massages in jail, asylum seekers (quite often people who are escaping torture and persecution) are coming here in their millions and being given free Bentley's and 630" plasma TVs on the NHS(rather than £35 a week or a stay in a detention centre), while the poor hard-working white man gets nothing and gets told off by PC namby pambies.

    And it's all bollocks. Every single bit of it.

    And the very people who claim to be patriotic and protecting Britain (BNP, EDL, Stormfront etc) are actually the very worst parts of it.

    For the most part, you're free to do what you want here, as long as you're not hurting someone else, despite what the BNP and the tabloids might tell you. But they want to create a Britain where we don't have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, a free market, free movement of labour. Despite the fact that they claim to be against it.

    It f*cks me right off because I'm lucky enough to live in one of the greatest countries on earth and the BNP scum make it sound like a hell hole.

    I think you're intelligent enough to know they're just awful human beings, but a lot of people aren't. They believe the crap about immigrants and then they see "oo, they've got some good ideas for regenerating the local park too...". Personally I find them so hateful that any suggestion that there is any 'good' in that band of thugs is worrying.

    I guess it's the fact that their manifesto writing must have been something like this that bothers me:
    "Right, page 1, 'We hate brown people', okay, got that in. Right, now Pete, you write the rest of it, just copy the other parties, but blame stuff on foreigners wherever you can yeah?"
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    bails87 wrote:
    [
    Personally I find them so hateful that any suggestion that there is any 'good' in that band of thugs is worrying.

    it worries me that you cant separate your emotions from facts, its not healthy.

    if more people were like me, the country would be a better place i reckon, and i dont even think there is anything particularly wrong with england.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998

    it worries me that you cant separate your emotions from facts, its not healthy.

    if more people were like me, the country would be a better place i reckon, and i dont even think there is anything particularly wrong with england.

    They hate me because of the colour of my parent's skin. We're not talking about a single policy, but someone who believes in hating people like me so much that they've joined the party. I don't see anything wrong with not liking that.
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    and there's the crux of it.

    your opinion is blinkerred and this is why you refuse to see the simple fact that some of the things they say are good ideas.
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Well, you're white, straight, christian, married and in the army, so you've got nothing to worry about from them. Could argue you're just as blinkered, not willing to see the damage they cause, which is why I don't see them as a sensible option, or in any way 'good'. :wink:
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    you refuse to see the simple fact that some of the things they say are good ideas.

    I didn't say that anyway :wink:

    But at the end of the day, no-one joins the BNP because of their energy policy, no-one votes for them based on their ideas around green belt land alone. They're primarily a racist party, supported by racists. The rest of the stuff is just inconvenient filler, which shows because it's either based on racism, Daily Mail myths, or copied from other parties.

    Peace out, it's the weekend! :D
    MTB/CX

    "As I said last time, it won't happen again."
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    It's the same with any party - you can pick apart many of every party's policies based on one line statements. There is no party where I like all the policies -probably not even half of them. To vote you have to weight things, judge what is important to you and make your decision. And that is why I didn't vote.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    whyamihere wrote:
    Seeing why it's a bad idea yet?
    Fair enough, I have no idea what the figures involved were.
    The no managements concept is basically about letting the people who do the work decide what's best for them.
    To put it in context of my job, for example, that would mean that we take bookings, decide what gear to buy, choose whether or not to fix our own gear or send it away, and so on.
    We don't need anyone to tell us what to do like that.

    I don't know exactly who came up with the idea, I just caught mention of it in passing, but it sounded interesting.
    There was also some BBC programme last week, that seemed to be putting the same thought into things like garbage collection, or something.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    bails87 wrote:
    Well, you're a legend so the BNP and all parties would like you

    fair one.

    i know who the bnp are, i know what they stand for, i know the world they would give us would be off it's tits, no question.

    i think i always say this but this time i mean it: im going to stop getting into politics related debates as i see the world differently to everyone else.

    also, if we all saw the world the way i do, it would be a better place.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    I think Bails might be confusing "they have a few interesting, and possibly worthwhile policies" with "I agree wholeheartedly with everything they say"
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,665
    I think Bails might be confusing "they have a few interesting, and possibly worthwhile policies" with "I agree wholeheartedly with everything they say"

    i kinda knew it would bring out that reaction from some people and its kind of why i did it. it interests me to see the reaction the mere mention of the BNP has on people who are normally rational and intelligent.

    things like the bnp say they would get rid of loads of nhs bureaucrats to allow for more nurses and whatnot, id rather a nurse looked after me in hospital than a manager and thats what i think is a good idea.

    straight away every one searches for reasons why this is a bad thing all of a sudden but if the favourite party of the person who hates the bnp came up with the same proposal, it would be a brilliant idea.

    c'mon, who wouldnt rather the nhs had more nurses and doctors?
  • bails87 wrote:
    I bet the people who build coastal defences for a living would love that idea.....
    They can help, make it a faster process. Maintain them in the mean time so that they stay for longer.

    Obviously not just coastal defences. For instance look at the crap on the verges of roads, Get them to clear all that shit up, It looks a tip and i personally am disgusted at the state of some of them, plastic everywhere. It's gotta be cleaned up. Don't just limit the idea to coastal defences. What about graffetii - get them to clear that up, save the council money cos they don't have too.

    Too right, get caught speeding twice, year in jail.

    Simple answer, don't speed. Plenty seem to be able to manage it. Look at california and their 3 strike system. Commit 3 crimes and your in jail no matter how petty! If it works for them, it can work for us.

    This is where papers like the mail come in. They invent "PC gone mad" stories. And people like the BNP use them to prove what's wrong with the country. By "PC" they probably mean that the police should be able to beat up black people without them getting all uppity about it.

    Obviously it needs limits but there is too much P.C. and there is too much health and saftey.
    Key word there, "defend". You're already allowed to defend yourself. Again, don't let the press trick you into thinking that if a burglar comes into your home and attacks you it's your duty to help him carry your tv out of the door and load it into his van. If the threat warranted it you'd be completely within your rights to kill him.

    also, if anyone being threatened has the right to use extreme violence, do we not end up where there's just a circle of 'legal' attacks?
    You are allowed to defend yourself, but if he starts to leave you must stop. Fark that for a laugh, i would do as much as possible to stop him from leaving and call the police get the bugger taken away.
    Rape's no laughing matter. Unless you're being raped by a clown.

    Again, this is something that either exists already or is being proposed by the other main parties, specifically with regards to rape.

    So if it is proposed by other "main" parties then its obviously a good policy is it not, you cannot deny that. The BNP are allowed to have good policies too you know.

    I in no way agree with everything the BNP stands for and would not vote for them but to automatically disregard the fact that a couple of their policies make sense because of their main "racisit" views is rather stupid.
    MmmBop

    Go big or go home.
  • Raymondavalon
    Raymondavalon Posts: 5,346
    bails87 wrote:
    They hate me because of the colour of my parent's skin. We're not talking about a single policy, but someone who believes in hating people like me so much that they've joined the party. I don't see anything wrong with not liking that.

    race_card.gif

    ^^Sorry! I just couldn't resist that^^ :twisted:

    Nowadays it's more than just race that drives people to the far right Mark. Often it's also based on class too.

    Every politician and political party churns out lies and talks between the likes to blur policies and solely to gain votes. Those who have the least to lose tend to vote for the BNP who brainwash them into believing that what little they have is the result of class, nationality, religion and racial issues.
  • Briggo
    Briggo Posts: 3,537
    Something tells me Bails doesnt like the BNP that much, I can't quite put my finger on it but its certainly there.

    I completely agree with sheeps, the BNP mention some good policies, such as the criminal stuff and the being able to do 80mph on a motorway etc.

    However I'd never vote for them due to everything else but it is interesting to see peoples reaction to the name as soon as its mentioned and how everything they say must be pure evil and has a hidden hypnotic message telling you that you have to be racist.

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