What cheapish Sportivish frames are there out there?.......

rolf_f
rolf_f Posts: 16,015
edited August 2010 in Commuting chat
Posted something to this effect in Road buying advice with not much response so hopefully folk here will do a better job for me :lol: !

Basically, I want a commuter road bike hopefully using C2W. Shouldn't be that hard but because I'm a little long in the leg and short in the body, there are few cheap(ish) bikes that fit me properly. One useful suggestion I did get in the other thread was a Bob Jackson frame which does appeal but, as soon as you ask for non standard geometry, the price goes up £200 and the wait time to 6 months - and I've done enough waiting this last year for a bike so I won't do that again for now. I looked on the PBK website which helpfully splits its frame lists up according to type and briefly got interested in the Kenesis frames they listed only to discover that none of them actually had sportive geometry (so much for PBKs PK). I was also suggested Condor (no meaningful website) and did think of trying my other local frame builder Woodrup (no meaningful website) so, below is the outcome of my search.

Geometrycomparison-1.jpg

So, so far the only frames I've found that actually has proper Sportive geometry at a reasonable price are the Ribbles Gran Fondo, Sportive and Deda Nero - which aren't quite the sorts of bike I was thinking of. Carbon for a year round commuter seems a bit mad somehow. That said, the frames are cheap and kitted out with handbuilt wheels and Mirage or Xenon, might do the job at the right price. But I really would like to know if anyone knows of any other frames that would also suit – whatever the material.
Faster than a tent.......

Comments

  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,811
    Specialized Secteur should fit into this category - it's the Aluminium version of the Roubaix. There is also I believe to be a 2011 aluminium version of the Cannondale Synapse
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301
    They seem to be a bit like Marmite, but how about a Charge Juicer Hi or Mid? Similar to the Genesis Equilibrium.

    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Charge_Juicer_Mid_2010/5360044279/

    and

    http://www.chargebikes.com/products/bikes/detail.php?id=22

    Might be a smidge long for you, but it does come with matching 'guards.

    Only sold as a complete bike, but the spec seems reasonable unless you're one of those "I don't do Shimano" types. The Mid sells for £949 so is C2W compatible, but i think the Hi is about £1200.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Tifosi CK7?

    Top tube: 555mm
    Head tube: 173mm
  • vorsprung
    vorsprung Posts: 1,953
    Could you explain why you are looking at the ratio of head tube length to vtt ?

    Surely the thickness of the tubing used on the down tube and top tube will affect the head tube length so it isn't that useful to compare different frames...?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301
    Just seen on the Homepage: a preview of the new Charge Filter aimed specifically at the year-round commuter it seems. Might be worth a closer look.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    vorsprung wrote:
    Could you explain why you are looking at the ratio of head tube length to vtt ?

    Surely the thickness of the tubing used on the down tube and top tube will affect the head tube length so it isn't that useful to compare different frames...?

    The height of the fork crown is more or less a constant (I think!) so the head tube governs the height of the handlebars (assuming I don't want a stack of spacers that look like a full packet of polo mints - and I don't!).

    Ultimately, head tube height and virtual top tube length are the relevant numbers. Seat tube height is meaningless unless given to the virtual top tube - which doesn't seem to happen much.

    rjsterry; I seem to recall that Charge get their frames made by Rayburn from cast iron - I want something that is reasonably near 20lbs. The Juicer comes in at 23lbs which is heavier than my mates 1990 Peugeot Triathlon and I could get one of those for £200 off Ebay. And yes, I am one of those 'I don't do Shimano' types; at least on road bikes. Fine for MTBs but I wouldn’t want to uglify a road bike with Shimano!

    Tailwindhome – will look into the Specialized but presume the above applies again!

    Undercoverelephant – forgot to look at Tifosi! Brb :)
    Faster than a tent.......
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Have a look at the steel Viner (Celer?) perhaps - not sure but it might be made to measure in which case would be perfect.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301
    Rolf F wrote:
    rjsterry; I seem to recall that Charge get their frames made by Rayburn from cast iron - I want something that is reasonably near 20lbs. The Juicer comes in at 23lbs which is heavier than my mates 1990 Peugeot Triathlon and I could get one of those for £200 off Ebay. And yes, I am one of those 'I don't do Shimano' types; at least on road bikes. Fine for MTBs but I wouldn’t want to uglify a road bike with Shimano!

    Well, I did say they're like Marmite :lol:

    EDIT: The Juicer is built from Tamge Prestige BTW. I'm sure you can find lighter, but you seemed to be steering away from the lightweight carbon stuff for some reason. As for 'uglifying' a road bike, I think someone's already left that Ribble too near a radiator. :P
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    MatHammond wrote:
    Have a look at the steel Viner (Celer?) perhaps - not sure but it might be made to measure in which case would be perfect.

    I did rather like the Epic Race team Celers and would be tempted if they were still available - I rather liked the spec too but it is expensive for an alloy bike. Also, my mileage is fairly high and an alloy frame will have to fail sometime. I think if I bought steel, I'd rather get a UK built bike.
    rjsterry wrote:
    EDIT: The Juicer is built from Tamge Prestige BTW. I'm sure you can find lighter, but you seemed to be steering away from the lightweight carbon stuff for some reason. As for 'uglifying' a road bike, I think someone's already left that Ribble too near a radiator. :P

    Yeah, I'm a bit dissappointed that no-ones telling me not to be so silly and that carbon is fine for a commuter :wink:

    When I knew Charge for their mountain bikes, I rather liked the company. When I saw their road bikes, I changed my mind!

    The Ribbles look OK to me considering they are monocoque framed and coloured red white and black! The Deda Noir is better though assuming they get some more in as they've only got small at the moment.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Can't you flip a stem, or use different rises like we do in the world of MTBS?

    And even given your ideal TT length, what about frame angles and such?
  • vorsprung
    vorsprung Posts: 1,953
    Rolf F wrote:
    vorsprung wrote:
    Could you explain why you are looking at the ratio of head tube length to vtt ?

    Surely the thickness of the tubing used on the down tube and top tube will affect the head tube length so it isn't that useful to compare different frames...?

    The height of the fork crown is more or less a constant (I think!) so the head tube governs the height of the handlebars (assuming I don't want a stack of spacers that look like a full packet of polo mints - and I don't!).

    ok I follow that, Regardless of how the seat and down tubes attach, or the fork rake this is generally right. Good stuff.

    I have a broken custom frame which fit me perfectly for long distance stuff (like "sportive"... although uk sportives aren't long distance imho) It has a 555mm VTT and a 190mm head tube. When it was built up I was using 2cm of spacers. I am 6'2" and the step over height is 813mm.

    I am having trouble finding a bike that is "big" enough in height but has a shorter VTT. Sounds like we are after the same thing.

    The Giant Defy has a nice long head tube, still a little too long in VTT for me

    http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-GB/bik ... 861/38957/

    The kinesis tk2 is close.
    http://www.kinesisbikes.co.uk/product.php?id=10

    The specialized sectuer and roubaix have nice relaxed head angles but are a bit on the long side.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,301
    If you forget about C2W (which you'll probably have to, assuming you want a full Campy gruppo and a nice frame), is waiting time the only reason for not going custom?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • prawny
    prawny Posts: 5,439
    How about, custom steel?

    Brian Rourke's start at £675 I think and I'm not sure but I think Bob Jackson will do an Audax Club with custom teube lengths for £400.

    I'm seriously tempted by a Thorn Audax Mk3 frame but I want to check the angles and top tube heights first.

    Also don't do what I did and think all steel frames have mega short HTs I forgot about external headsets d'oh! :oops:

    Edit:

    Looking at the genesis websit I think with the headset the 56cm Equilibrium frame will have more like a 170mm HT and the 54 would be about 160mm, which would be about bang on for me. I'd check with them first that the measurements don't include the headset though, don't take my word for it.
    Saracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
    Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
    Vitus Sentier VRS - 2017
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Bob Jackson said £600 for any custom tubing plus 6 month wait.

    Basically, time and C2W is why I don't want to go custom - my first bike took 3 months to arrive, my second 6 months. I don't want to run the Dawes through this winter (even though the MTB will deal with the salty days) so something that delivers quickly is needed.

    Just found out that our C2W is sticking with the old 5% rule til the end of September and I can get a new voucher at the start of September - so not much time for mucking about.

    I expect it will have to be a Ribble Sportive Racing or Gran Fondue.

    Can get Mirage/Xenon etc on one of those for well under 1k.

    Supersonic - could do a stem flip but I'm less fussy about the source of the frame than the sizing.

    Ribble options - standard wheels are Pro Lite Como clincher. Is is worth spending £26 extra for Campag Khamsin. I like Campag wheels but I need something that will stay true, be easy to true when it fails to stay true and with hubs that will last a good few thousand miles.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • vorsprung
    vorsprung Posts: 1,953
    ah ha....I looked again at the Specialized geometry. Must have misread it before

    The Specialized Secteur has a head tube of 190mm with a VTT of 565mm for size "56"

    There are versions for less than £1k from various places, it's the Aluminium take of the Roubaix

    I think I will try and organise a test ride on a Roubaix, see if I like it
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    I wouldn't testride a Roubaix if you're interested in buying the Secteur - you'll be spoiled, and then riding the Secteur will always feel like a compromise!
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Finger hovering over the 'go' button on a Gran Fondo........
    Faster than a tent.......
  • prawny
    prawny Posts: 5,439
    Rolf F wrote:
    Finger hovering over the 'go' button on a Gran Fondo........

    Blimey that fork is heavy :wink:
    Saracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
    Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
    Vitus Sentier VRS - 2017
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    prawny wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Finger hovering over the 'go' button on a Gran Fondo........

    Blimey that fork is heavy :wink:

    I know - actually, there is a lot of confusion as there are about 3 different Gran Fondo frame designs and I think some of them have a full carbon fork. Even the geometry is uncertain so I'll be going over to Preston to double check all the details before I process the voucher.

    Ultimately, as I said, there isn't much choice. The Deda Nero is no longer available and, in any case, both that and the Sportive have longer top tubes - I mis-read the sizing chart so the 175/173 frames actually have standard 570 top tubes. Doesn't help that the geometry charts are all different.....

    I'm regarding it as a bike that will cost me £600 rather than 1k and it ought at least to turn out a fair bit lighter than my 28lb Dawes :lol:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • vorsprung
    vorsprung Posts: 1,953
    biondino wrote:
    I wouldn't testride a Roubaix if you're interested in buying the Secteur - you'll be spoiled, and then riding the Secteur will always feel like a compromise!

    Rolf or anyone doing bike2work scheme might like a Secteur

    I am after a bicycle for Paris-Brest-Paris next year, not a commuter
  • prawny
    prawny Posts: 5,439
    Rolf F wrote:
    prawny wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Finger hovering over the 'go' button on a Gran Fondo........

    Blimey that fork is heavy :wink:

    I know - actually, there is a lot of confusion as there are about 3 different Gran Fondo frame designs and I think some of them have a full carbon fork. Even the geometry is uncertain so I'll be going over to Preston to double check all the details before I process the voucher.

    Ultimately, as I said, there isn't much choice. The Deda Nero is no longer available and, in any case, both that and the Sportive have longer top tubes - I mis-read the sizing chart so the 175/173 frames actually have standard 570 top tubes. Doesn't help that the geometry charts are all different.....

    I'm regarding it as a bike that will cost me £600 rather than 1k and it ought at least to turn out a fair bit lighter than my 28lb Dawes :lol:

    I was pulling your leg, I'm a bit tempted by a gran fondo myself, the sportive seems more sport than sportive to me.
    I dropped genesis an email yesterday after I posted, the guy said you can add 28mm to the headtubes stated on the website if you're comparing them to a bike with an integrated headset, that puts all of them into the sportive geometry bracket for me. The 54cm Equilibrium works out at effective TT at 545mm and a 168mm HT. I really fancy one of them now. Might have a look next year I'm not sure if they've got any left now. The Aether is quite sexy for an Alu bike.
    Saracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
    Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
    Vitus Sentier VRS - 2017
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    prawny wrote:
    I was pulling your leg, I'm a bit tempted by a gran fondo myself, the sportive seems more sport than sportive to me.

    It's easily pulled :D

    If you are tempted by a Ribble, might be worth deciding sooner than later; chap I rang up said the current discount prices might not be up for much longer.
    Faster than a tent.......