Should we have an accident advice sticky?

lost_in_thought

Should be pretty self-explanatory!

See below as found by Nicklouse from LFGSS, which seems a good thing to use if people want it.

nicklouse wrote:

LFGSS wrote:

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DONATE YOUR PROFESSIONAL OR EXPERIENCED KNOWLEDGE TO THIS THREAD.
IF YOU ARE A DOCTOR OR LAWYER (paid or gratis) WHO IS WILLING TO HELP RIDER'S PLEASE POST YOUR INFORMATION AND EXPERTISE ON THIS THREAD.


Some of you know that I've been fighting the man getting them to reopen a pretty f*cked up road rage case.
I thought it might be helpful to outline the stuff that the cops etc have told me in my dealings, as much of the problems regarding the case stem from what happened AFTER the accident/crime and not what happened during.

Maybe other people would like to add FACTS here.

BEFORE YOU ARE EVER IN AN ACCIDENT

-Save your local police station number in your phone and know your route in case you have to call your own ambulance or police

IF YOU ARE HIT BY A CAR

- First and foremost get a MINIMUM of TWO independent witnesses. Get their names and phone numbers. Ask them for a business card if possible. If they don't have a card, make small talk, ask what they do for a living or if they live in the neighbourhood. DO NOT just hand that over to the cops. Write the details down separately and give that to the cops.

KEEP DETAILS SAFE.
Why: The cops and crown prosecution rely heavily on witness statements. They are also very good at losing them or 'forgetting to follow up. If the case goes to court, it will likely be up to a year before the trial. That is a very long time to allow the cops to lose stuff. Also, London's a transient city, by the time the case goes to trial one of your witnesses could have easily moved to another country, or moved house, or gotten another number. Having the business card and knowing what they do for a living can be very useful for the cops and you to track them down.

-Take a look around. Write down every CCTV camera you can see. Make a note of whether it's privately owned (banks, night clubs, etc) or whether it's city-owed. On your report, make a list of these.
Why: In our case when I asked if the cops checked CCTV footage, they replied "We weren't told there were any". By that time it was too late for them to be checked.
-[From Regulator:]You should use the Data Protection Act rather than the Freedom of Information Act to apply for CCTV footage. You should make a data subject access request under Section 7(1) of the DPA. The Information Commissioner's Office provide a template for requests. The CCTV Code of Practice outlines an organisation's responsibilities for disclosure in section 19.2 (page 15). Also, you should use the Data Protection Act (not the Freedom of Information Act which does not apply) to access case details from the police. However, the police can withhold information in certain circumstances.
-Please also note that a standard private owned CCTV camera's data is deleted every 30 days. You do not have much time to get a copy of it, neither do the cops. If you are able, go to the private business, bring a blank DVD and explain that you need their help and a copy of you "getting hit by a car", etc..


AT THE SCENE
- Don't just get the registration of the car, try to get the driver's license/home address, etc.

- Don't discuss what happened with the driver. Politely say that you'd rather wait for the cops to sort things out. Make it light but forceful.

-If the driver offers you money on the spot to solve the problem understand that the exchange of money can be looked at as a contract. Don't expect anything else from that point on from the cops or the driver. What you walk away with in your hand is all you should count on.

- If you go to the police station. This is VERY important. Second guess the desk officer regarding whether or not you've been given the right forms.
If you were hit purposefully/with intent/due to gross negligence/through anger or aggression- This is a CRIMINAL offence. You need to be filing on the CRIMINAL Offence form.
If it was a traffic ACCIDENT then you need to be filing a TRAFFIC Offence form.
Why: The forms go to two completely different groups of officers. If a traffic accident is looked at by a criminal cop, they tend to push it aside because they investigate criminal offences, and it won't fulfill their criminal requirements. And vice versa. HOWEVER, station cops may hear "I was hit by a car" and just assume it was a traffic incident. If the driver hit you PURPOSEFULLY it is likely to be a criminal incident and you need to push it to be looked at like this.

- If cops come to the scene, make a note of the "Investigating Officer's" name and badge number. Casually encourage proper note-taking. Point out (as above) whether you believe the incident to be traffic or criminal.
Why: S/he is responsible, more than anyone else, for whether or not your case is handled properly. Befriend them.

- If you report the incident at a station, you will have to fill out TWO different sets of very similar forms. The first time at the station and the second time about 6 weeks later. This 2nd set is what the cops send out to you and what they send to the CP. This 2nd set is VERY IMPORTANT. The Crown Prosecution is who decides whether or not a case is going to go to court and what the correct charges will be. Treat this 2nd form as if you've never told your story before. Get out those business cards, rewrite the witness information, and the list of CCTV cameras. Include the investigating officer by name and badge number to show you are to be taken seriously. Include anything of importance that s/he said at the time, anything the witnesses said to you, and anything the driver did afterwards.

- Remember! The driver could have a very different story than you do. This is where the strength of your case relies strongly on your witnesses.

- If there was damages to your property be thankful! This is the only way you can take a driver to civil court (if need be). This is also the only likely way you will get help from lawyers. It sucks, but money/property talks. Injustice doesn't mean a whole lot. Make notes of each part of your bike that was damages, supply receipts or store information proving how much it is worth. Take photographs of the damage AND take it to a bike shop and ask them to appraise/explain the damage in writing. Include any time spent off work/lost wages, etc..

- DO NOT RIDE YOUR BICYCLE AWAY FROM THE SCENE!!! If the cops/driver see this they may not understand that it was indeed still damaged. While your down tube is dented and therefore your frame is worthless, they may not understand that you risked it and still rode it home. If the next day you wake up sore from neck to toes they may not understand why the adrenaline you felt when you were hit allowed you to ride a bike.

-TAKE A PHOTO OF THE DRIVER AND OF VARIOUS ANGLES OF THE ACCIDENT - Your phone camera will do. The driver may later say it wasn't him driving.

ARE YOU HURT?
- If you are hurt, don't be a tough guy. Go to the hospital/your GP. Get a letter from them explaining your injuries. While a good case of road rash may not be life-threatening it may make you unable to ride/walk/work properly. This is important to note. If you get a later infection or later bone/muscle problems it will make it trickier to prove.
- If you have adreneline pumping through your veins you may not realize you are injured - go to the hospital.
- If you have a scrapped up knee, you are injured, go to the hospital.
- I have straight forwardly been told by the police to go to the hospital if there is any injury at all. Tell the doctor that you will be taking the case to court and could s/he please take detailed notes.
- I have also been told by the cops to take pictures once the swelling/bruising sets in, in other words when it looks really bad. The cops want to punish people, they need evidence to do this.

-Above all, BE PERSISTENT! Make one day a week, 'call the cops day'. Check in on your case. The cops "stretch the truth" and are lazy/very busy. Don't believe anything they say like "we're working on it" or "we'll call you". You do the leg work. If one officer doesn't help you ask for his/her superior. Call them by their name and be polite.
Don't ask questions like "Could you check into that?" Instead say things like "When you check into that will you call me with a follow up?" Then when they say "Yeah, sure.." Push further (but politely) with statements like "And when can I expect to hear from you?" Remember cops have been drilled/brain washed to work in a 'fill in the boxes, dot the I's sort of way',they rely on a chain of command to know what's right or wrong. So if they are a good cop, reward them. Thank them for their help. Be very nice. Bow down to their wise moves. If they are a bad cop, admonish them, point out that you are not happy with the way they are "serving" you. Ask to speak to a superior. Again politely.
If a cop says they'll have to call somebody else or somebody else is in charge of something, get that person's name and contact information. Call them. Tell them who told you to call them.
If a cop blames you for ANYTHING (i.e. wrong forms, not calling, shouldn't have been riding so fast/without a helmet) remind them that it is not their job to blame the victim but their job to assist them.

DO NOT GET ANGRY/RAISE YOUR VOICE/SWEAR. Cops rely on winding you up. The second you yell or use a swear word they have a legal right not to have to talk to you. Also, psychologically you are undermining their sense of authority which is all they have. This doesn't do you any good. Continue to remind them that they have the "power" to assist you. Not all cops wanted to become police officers for the power trip, some actually, in the back of their brain, honestly wanted to help out society. Appeal to that part of their brain. Put them in your shoes, "I'm sure you can understand why I'm so frustrated", etc.

Keep a folder containing:
reference details (numbers, officer names, etc)
witnesses details
driver's details
photographs of your bike and black eyes
officer names (every one you ever speak to)
dates and times you made phone calls. Write a quick note of what was discussed each time.
Any other places you complained/talked to (see below)


There are people out there who can help.
Road Peace - A non-profit that deals with road-user's rights.
Your MP - They may want to silently watch the case, but they are there to assist you.
Contact Cycle Aid 01772 250871 "Cycle Aid are personal injury solicitors specialising in cycle injury and accident claims. We will act for you on a ‘no win, no fee’ basis giving cutting-edge legal advice to help you make a claim for compensation. We have been involved in many substantial claims involving head injuries, shoulder injuries, spinal injuries, facial injuries, back injuries, knee injuries and other bicycle accident claims"

IF THE COPS ARE ABUSIVE, NEGLIGENT, INCAPABLE OF DOING THEIR JOB:
Look, it's easy to get disheartened and give up when the cops don't help you, but if you don't do something about this you make it hader for the next one of us in your shoes.
Please complain!!
You can do this easily and online. The two complaints commitees are duty-bound to, at least, investigate. Plus it's a record of shittiness done by cops.
To complain go here:
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/
https://secure.met.police.uk/complaints/
If the driver was a "professional" driver complain to their profession's headquarters.
TfL if it's a bus
Public Carriage Office if it's a black cab.
The link to make an online complaint against a black cab is here: https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/contact/pco/taxi.aspx
I have never not gotten a reply from complaining to TfL.

If they are driving a company van/car get the details of their company and complain to the boss.

If you would like to sue in civil court you want to go to this page to start with. You can only sue for money, not emotion or injustice. So for things like a farked up bike or time off work due to the accident. If you have already accepted an insurance pay out then you may not be eligible to sue so check with a solicitor before accepting any compensation if you think you may like to take the case further.

The case can create precedent. This can be a great thing for future injured and suing cyclists. Their lawyers can point to the case as reference. However, if you lose it can create precedent that makes it harder for other cyclists. This is one of the greatest reasons to follow through on cases that are obvious wrong-doing and why not to follow through on cases that aren't (i.e. he hit me, it was totally his fault but I was drinking for the last 8 hours and there's proof of that). In no way do I want to sound like I'm blaming the victim here, but chances are you will be blamed at some point in the course of the trial so just be ready with your defense (i.e. it doesn't matter what I was wearing or how much I drinking or if I was flirting or if I went home with him, it didn't give him permission........you get the idea. Justice is cold.)

I believe that Statute of Limitations for cases is: **
6 months for Traffic Court
No SoL or One Year for Criminal
no clue about civil

**If you know better can you correct/back up these times?

Something else people don't often realise -- opening a car door so as to injure OR endanger any person is a criminal offence. I recently prosecuted a guy down in Portsmouth who opened his car door without looking, straight into the neck of a passing cyclist, who was in his naval whites, on his way to work. The sailor was extremely lucky, and is still walking, despite the fracture to his neck.
That's a really bad example, but it's an offence to ENDANGER, not just injure, so if someone does something that really takes teh wee-wee, tell the cops. Be prepared for them to tell you it isn't a crime, but cite the following and shock them with knowledge!
Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986
Regulation 105,
"No person shall open, or cause or permit to be opened, any door of a
vehicle on a road so as to injure or endanger any person."
Road Traffic Act 1988, Section 42 makes contravening the above regulation an offence.



If you are at all injured, call the police and say you are injured. Say that you can't come to the station as you are injured and they need to come to the scene. We are getting A LOT of reports from riders saying police just refuse to come out to accidents. This is the best and sometimes ONLY way to make them come to the scene. You have a right to police assistance.


Stop SMIDSY
Stop ‘Sorry Mate, I Didn’t See You’

Because sometimes sorry just isn’t enough.
Bad driving intimidates and harms innocent people. Cyclists and pedestrians are particularly endangered by negligent or aggressive driving because we’re not encased in a few tonnes of metal every time we set out on the roads.
Stop SMIDSY will address how the police, prosecutors, the courts, and the law itself could all do a better job at encouraging people to use the roads in safer and more considerate ways. When we lobby these institutions on your behalf, we need evidence of how they need to improve. That’s where you come in.
Report your story and help make our roads safer

Most of us have experienced bad driving. By creating a place to collect and share these stories, we will build the political will to change how society deals with bad driving.
Get information and advice

If you request help from our lawyers, we will send them the information you have supplied us. They will contact you within seven days if they think they will be able to help.
You can also learn more about the law about bad driving and download some practical tips for dealing with it.
http://www.stop-smidsy.org.uk/


to sketch an accident:
http://www.springwise.com/life_hacks/accidentsketch/

might be a good base edit and add away.

supersonic

There is no point of a vote for which section, if we have one: it will go in the General section ie one of the reasons why that section was set up, for serious issues.

always_tyred

supersonic wrote:

There is no point of a vote for which section, if we have one: it will go in the General section ie one of the reasons why that section was set up, for serious issues.

Surely we should have a silly accident advice thread and an accident advice thread. That way, it would be straightforward to move silly posts to the silly accident advice thread, and move sensible posts to the accident advice thread.

If we do this dour, boring, unimaginitive dullards will not get unsuspectingly offended by anything approaching wit.

supersonic

But then someone will moan there is too many stickies ;-)

lost_in_thought

Hence the poll innit.

Democracy rocks.

supersonic

As I said, if there is going to be an accident advice thread, it will not be in the chat section.

I think there will be one, but someone needs to research it before we go ahead with it. Any forumite wanting to to that? What we have now looks good, but needs checking.

tailwindhome

supersonic wrote:

I think there will be one, but someone needs to research it before we go ahead with it. Any forumite wanting to to that? What we have now looks good, but needs checking.

Maybe a long standing commuting forum member with legal training and personal recent experience of an accident

Perhaps Spen?

Certainly someone without the chip on their shoulder about 'the man' as displayed in the LFGSS post

deptfordmarmoset

Sure there should be an easy-to-find article or post about accident advice but I haven't really grasped the idea why it should be hidden away on one particular forum, where less-experienced forum navigators might not be able to find it. It's not only commuters that get knocked off their bikes. So victims, in shock and quite possibly in pain, should not be given the run around or be expected to know in advance where pre-established protocol has previously deemed appropriate for that advice to go.

Way up top there's a dark blue banner where there's room for an advice or help link. Already, there's room for a ''fitness'' link where BR seems to be able to commission enough articles to keep that filled. Yet there's no link about survival, which when you think about it is a pre-requisite to fitness.

I think a banner link to an article/group of articles, whether commissioned or generated by forum contributions, should go up top where everyone can see it.

supersonic

Banners are out of the realm of the user generated forum, and into the realm of the publishers.

I agree, it would be great if we could have this: as has been mentioned, it would probably stem from some published article.

But as it stands, unless this is taken on by the men above, it is very much in our hands. I would like to see a accident sticky I think it would very useful. I am happy to put some effort into researching it: but I will need some help!

We can't however link to it from every forum. I would like to think the new General Commuter section covers topics like this one, and people wanting to seek advice, both old and new, would be drawn here anyway.

deptfordmarmoset

Thanks for the reply, supersonic. So it seems like it's a bit of a structural upstairs/downstairs problem.

But in any case it's surely better to have the information - or links to information - in a fixed place than not to have it at all.

Incidentally, and sorry if this has already been posted, there's a couple of useful looking pdfs on CTC's website here (one on crash advice and one on legal advice):

http://www.stop-smidsy.org.uk/information/crash

lost_in_thought

Been there, asked that:

nicklouse wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

nicklouse wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

It was moderated.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

speaking of that are you going to sort out the info for the accidents sticky you wanted?

or is it now not needed?

Sorry, the last comments were that it might be something Bikeradar was going to look into, I thought I'd 'reported' those posts to the mods and was awaiting a response... I seem to recall that whyamihere responded....

EDIT: I recall incorrectly! I've hit the exclamation mark again... it was from my phone last time so maybe it didn't go through.

so nothing is happening?

oh well maybe we don't bother listening to you lot.

maybe you have forgotten forums are user created/made.

If BR were to do something it may be on the web site.

so as you asked for a sticky with accident info, at the same time as people were saying there were to many stickies, do you want one or not?

if yes what info should be in it?

if you dont want to do it why did you ask for it?

if you want BR to do it then approach the appropriate magazine to cover it.

but as they have jobs i dont think it will be high on their list of things to do.

like i said it is user generated.

so Maybe i can say it is dead and we can lose the serious bit as it was not really wanted as the users could not be bothered?

If i have got this totally wrong please PM me a link to a topic that you would like to have as the accident sticky.

deptfordmarmoset

Sorry, l_i_t, if I was going back over ground that you'd already covered. Though, now I think of it, are we possibly going back over ground that CTC have already covered?

Does this make sense....?

If it has to be a sticky, then so be it - work with it.
The sooner the sticky is up the better as long as the information contained is accurate and useful.
CTC's smidsy campaign pdfs, linked above, look pretty well done to me. We might be able to come up with something better in time, but for now - in the absence of a definitive user-generated document - wouldn't it make sense to quickly put a sticky up that contains links to those two pdfs?

I'm reasoning from a fairly pragmatic, ''best available'' point of view - if somebody comes up with summat better then that should replace it as and when. But for now....

lost_in_thought

No worries Mr Marmoset!

I agree that in an ideal world it'd be something easily findable from all the forums, but in lieu of that, other forums could at least point people in the right direction.

Greg T

supersonic wrote:

There is no point of a vote for which section, if we have one: it will go in the General section ie one of the reasons why that section was set up, for serious issues.

But if it goes in the general section, no one will ever see it...

deptfordmarmoset

Greg T wrote:

supersonic wrote:

There is no point of a vote for which section, if we have one: it will go in the General section ie one of the reasons why that section was set up, for serious issues.

But if it goes in the general section, no one will ever see it...

But we're such good-natured, helpful people that if someone posts about a crash in the ''wrong'' forum, we can say ''bad news, there's some good advice in a sticky over on Commuting General.''

As well as the inevitable ''Should have D-locked the cnut'' replies, of course.

Agent57

Why was the forum split in two anyway? Seems pretty pointless to me.

supersonic

Because the old one was getting cramped, and serious posts lost amongst what was being posted. Plus there were getting too many stickies.

It is working fine, both are busy.

Stevo_666

Seems OK to me - not sure what all the fuss is about with the split? The MTB and roadie forums seem to work just fine with far more sub-forums than here.

Agent57

I'm not making a fuss, just asking. For me, it's a bit of an annoyance having to check two places instead of one, but that's all.

supersonic

Could be worse, could be 9 ;-)

The MTB and roadie forums do work better for it, and we feel that the new Commuter forum will work better for newcomers too.

deptfordmarmoset

Stevo 666 wrote:

Seems OK to me - not sure what all the fuss is about with the split? The MTB and roadie forums seem to work just fine with far more sub-forums than here.

I think the problem being discussed specifically in this thread - where do you put an accident sticky - illustrates one of the problems of increasing segmentation. Ideally, you'd want such a sticky to be instantly visible to the largest number of people. But where is that place? The more the forums, the less any one thread, sticky or otherwise, gets read or seen by the majority and things get accidentally hidden away. In a perfect world, something like an advice thread would go higher up the hierarchy because it's relevant to lots of sub-forums.

However, that doesn't appear to be an option. We either drop the sticky idea or settle, somewhat arbitrarily, on one place (we're told it will have to be ComGen). Personally, I'd prefer going for it sooner than later with the best available advice going up. Now.

supersonic

The text under the forum header specifically says what the fora are designed for - one serious, one chat. Just like in the MTB and Road, specific stickies are in specific areas. Newcomers will see this. People already here will know too.

We have no problems anywhere else. It just seems to be here for some reason. I don't see useful info being missed, or why people feel the need just to stick to one section.

It will happen soon, as soon as we get it checked over and discuss content more. I have been busy today, and will be for a couple of days so as before, would like some input on content.

always_tyred

I'm pretty sure its "forums".

wgwarburton

Hi,
My vote is for no accident sticky:

We don't have particular expertise to bring to it

- better to point people to the CTC and/or LFGSS ones.

The number of stickies should be kept to a minimum.

Accidents are quite rare, so it wouldn't often be used.

It will put off newbies

- there's already an erroneous perception that cycling is dangerous - imagine you're thinking you might give it a try- you put cycle commuting into Google and end up here- first thing that hits you is an accident advice sticky...oops- better stick to the car. - How counterproductive is that?

Add links to the newbie thread- preferably right at the end!!!

Cheers,
W.

rjsterry

WGWarburton wrote:

Hi,
My vote is for no accident sticky:

We don't have particular expertise to bring to it

- better to point people to the CTC and/or LFGSS ones.

The number of stickies should be kept to a minimum.

Accidents are quite rare, so it wouldn't often be used.

It will put off newbies

- there's already an erroneous perception that cycling is dangerous - imagine you're thinking you might give it a try- you put cycle commuting into Google and end up here- first thing that hits you is an accident advice sticky...oops- better stick to the car. - How counterproductive is that?

Add links to the newbie thread- preferably right at the end!!!

Cheers,
W.

Hadn't thought of that - good point.

Agent57

supersonic wrote:

Could be worse, could be 9 ;-)

The MTB and roadie forums do work better for it, and we feel that the new Commuter forum will work better for newcomers too.

Heheh, could be nine indeed.

I think the "serious" forum could be better named though. To me, "chat" suggests an informal area; but that's what "general" is intended to be. In my mind, the two names are back to front; general for general commuting-related threads, and chat for lighter, more informal topics that aren't necessarily about commuting.

Edit: Oh, no, wait. I just double-checked before pressing Submit and they seem to have been changed already. Or were they always that way round? God, now I'm really confused!

rjsterry

Yep, Chat has always been the 'Silly' side although there are still the vast majority of the 'Serious' threads stranded over here.

DonDaddyD

I know I once enquired about seperating the forums, but I was never truly behind the notion.

supersonic wrote:

Because the old one was getting cramped, and serious posts lost amongst what was being posted. Plus there were getting too many stickies.

It is working fine, both are busy.

Thing is the advice given here was and is just as good as the advice given there. The difference being that there is more chance of getting more replies and a larger variety of replies here.

The banter, say if I talked around someone asking "what hybrid" into buying a road bike and that led into a 'tribalist' discusion about the virtues of different types of bike, is part of the camaraderie of the online community that is by extenstion the camaraderie between commuters. You've taken that away.

As I've said before, I came for the advice, I still come here for the advice but I stay for the banter. I'm also robust enough to keep any thread I deem serious on track.

Furthermore, have you moderators never had a conversation in the real world? To expect a conversation to stay on topic and not evolve into something else is unrealistic. Do you want the forums to be friendly and engaging or do you want us to be souless unfriendly robuts that simply reply "buy a Giant Defy 3" and then wait for you to close the thread so no further engagement, discussion or enjoyment can happen?

Always Tyred

Fora is the plural for Forums in the context of an Ancient Roman forum. You could argue that by association, the plural for an online forum could still be fora.

Buns

I see your point, but does accident advice deter potential motorists? Does accident advice deter people who wish to partake in any other past time or hobby?

Accidents happen and its useful to have that information avaiable in a clear and concicse manner. Personally I find it reassuring knowing that should the worse happen there are systems and ready advice in place to help.

As an aside I think the first post (the actual information for the sticky) is too long. I didn't even get halfway through it before I switched off. Too long, too much.

rjsterry

The other problem with stickies is that they become out of date. Perhaps they should have a 6 monthly review. As regards the accident advice sticky in particular, I think the usefulness probably outweighs the negative impression that it's prominence as a sticky might give. Unfortunately, in London, cycling accidents aren't that unusual (neither are car accidents, it's just the number of people on the road) although the situation is very different in other parts of the country.

As a compromise (I am such a LibDem), the thread could be entitled "It probably won't happen to you, but if it does, here's what to do" a bit like the "don't have nightmares" at the end of Crimewatch.