favourite suspension platforms :)

Shaggy_Dog

supersonic wrote:

you do agree that some designs will extend the rear sus due to weight transfer?

I do. With the exception of the Giant NRS (no sag ) if there is sag in the suspension, and you transfer weight to the handlebars through braking, the back end of the bike will lift out of it's sag, hence endos.

This is why careful geometry design is vital. On a hardtail the geometry pivots around the rear wheel so is quite easy to design, most extreme circumstances on a HT are with the fork nearly fully extended on very steep climbs or nearly fully compressed when braking on a steep descent. This is why I like short travel hardails, the geometry is nearly always neutral

On a full suss the geometry changes are way bigger, on a steep climb under power a bike might use up more than 50% of it's rear travel in sag with the fork is nearly fully extended, and may be fully extend out back but fully compressed up front on the descent. On a 120mm travel bike with a 69 deg head angle unsagged, you could have a 66 deg head angle climbing and 74 deg descending (very rough calculation based on the one inch travel = 1 degree added the the HA)

Shaggy_Dog

weescott wrote:

I mean true single pivot. Not linkage actuated single pivot. When I had the bearings replaced in my Heckler frame my LBS didn't want to charge me anything for it. I have new bearings to put in at some point that I will do myself. It's only a few quid and nothing like £40. Something like a blur on the other hand can be about £100 for bearings. Easily trashed after a few months winter riding.

Let's be honest, the Blur LT is barely any better than the Heckler anyway for the extra £600 or so. That's a good enough reason to buy it, but I don't agree with the maintenance thing, frankly if you can afford to spunk £600 on no perceivable difference you're not going to be put off by having to spend an extra £60 to get the back end serviced.

I work for a Santa Cruz dealer and I know for a FACT that Heckler bearings don't last as long as Blur bearings, plus I've seen a few written off shocks over the years due to sideloading on various Cannondales, Santa Cruz's and Gary Fisher Fat Possums.

Disc brakes and gears cost a lot more to maintain than suspension bushings, no matter what bike you ride, but I doubt your Heckler has V brakes and singlspeed!

Anonymous

Actually, with Marin's bikes, you don't pay for anything. Bearings and labour is free, under the lifetime guarantee.
This is providing you go to a Marin dealer. I've taken the old bike to a great local LBS once, which wasn't a Marin dealer, and although they could get the bearings for free, they said Marin would not reimburse them for labour, which is fair enough I guess.

weescott

That's a different arguement to say that VPP is barely better than SP. I don't agree. Is it worth an extra £600? That's debatable. There have been some issues with the Heckler bearings, that's why a UK specific assembly was made available last year for IIRC £100. Then there were the snapping pivot bolts and the new collet design.

I have never had any written off shocks due to side loading in 5+ years of riding Hecklers. I have heard of the problem before but never know anyone to suffer from it.

Someone may be willing to spend extra on a bike for a bike that is better but not always at the expense of extra maintenance cost. Which is a concern for people.

An arguement could be made that true single pivot bearings don't last as long as more complex designs due to the extra load they have to bear. Mine are lasting around 18months maybe a bit less. For the cost of replacing the bearings and how long it takes it's not a bother of mine.

Andy

I like the suspension design that is on my bike. It is the best and all others are rubbish in comparison. I get no pedal feedback and no brake jack at all thanks to its superb design.

lawman

of all the bikes i've ridden, id say bikes with vpp, dw link or similar systems have the best suspension. i think they get just about everything right suspension wise, and i love how they pedal so well, but most seem super plush too. if id were build my own bike, id use a twin link setup.

of the fsr bikes ive tried, ive liked very few, the lapierre zesty is the only bike like this i would ride, they seem to bob alot and seem very dependant and a very good shock setup to get the best out of them. cant stand most single pivots tbh, but i have to say the linkage actuated ones, such as commencals contact system, sunns frankly brilliant system and saracens new ariel to a certain extent, are very good imo. but at the end of the day there is no definitive answer and it comes down to personal preference in many ways i guess

aneesh99

Equilink, I-Drive, DW Link, but I do love a bit of single pivot action courtesy of Orange

Funny thing actually, was watching the gadget show for some stupid reason, that dude Otis said the Orange 224 was a techy piece of kit, I don't think there's anything more industrial or 'stuff technology' than a beefy single pivot...

weescott

She did ride a "very tricky section" and get away with it.

224 pushing the limits of single Pivot on kittylitter trails!

Anonymous

lawman wrote:

of the fsr bikes ive tried, ive liked very few,

See, whilst I agree with that, I don't think it's purely down to the FSR system. It, like VPP can be tuned for a variety of uses. The problem I think is that I've not tried an FSR bike that was configured how I like. They felt very XC-race oriented, where pedalling "well", was the goal, above all else, leaving plushness a secondary design goal.

Shaggy_Dog

yeehaamcgee wrote:

lawman wrote:

of the fsr bikes ive tried, ive liked very few,

See, whilst I agree with that, I don't think it's purely down to the FSR system. It, like VPP can be tuned for a variety of uses. The problem I think is that I've not tried an FSR bike that was configured how I like. They felt very XC-race oriented, where pedalling "well", was the goal, above all else, leaving plushness a secondary design goal.

I find them soggy and too sluggish, you'd have like my Enduro, it was super plush but it wallowed if you tried to give it the beans. I prefer a firm feel when you hit the gas, and lets you keep on pedalling over the rough stuff. If it's too pert, like my Hifi, you can hammer the pedals on smooth stuff but it will lose traction over roots and rocks if you're absolutely going for it, for the majority of the time it feels fine. I rode the 2010 Fuel EX over the winter as we had one as a demo bike and it just blew me away. I could mash the pedals and the back wheel just dug in and launched me down the trail, when I hit roots that I'd normally back off the power on, I could still mash away like I was on a road bike climb and it just gripped and gripped. Unbelievable really, I thought with suspension it was always a compromise of plushness vs pertness.

supersonic

The virtual pivot point of most FSRs is very low, and just behind the bottom bracket - the levels of anti squat are low, and therefore it bobs a bit.

Anonymous

Shaggy_Dog wrote:

you'd have like my Enduro, it was super plush but it wallowed if you tried to give it the beans.

I don't like wallowyness either.
One of the strangest feelings was whilst riding a Kona Stab. It was a strange feeling of complete disconnectedness with the ground, I just had no idea how much or how little traction there was. Very odd, and hard to explain.

Shaggy_Dog

So like a Kona then? I remember GT going on about the virtual pivot on their 4 bar LTS being several metres in front of the bike

aneesh99

weescott wrote:

She did ride a "very tricky section" and get away with it.

224 pushing the limits of single Pivot on kittylitter trails!

Haha, indeed! Let's be honest though, I could ride that on my XC rig, or maybe a Halford's special rigid? 8)

supersonic

I have some old GT catalogues and literature: I think they were also the 1st to use the term anti squat.

Shaggy_Dog

Any chance you've got the one with my LTS in it? I think it's '95. Can't find any pictures of the original bike for love nor money

supersonic

I shall have a look at what I can find! Many are online too.

Shaggy_Dog

Cheers mate, that would be epic!

supersonic

Feast your eyes on this!

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/mai ... emId=10533

Anonymous

I used to lust after an LTS or an STS. Then a Lobo

supersonic

I had a go on a LTS DS 2000 with 8 inch Hannbrink forks on lol. In the small gears the pedal kickback was epic!

Shaggy_Dog

I think I've had a trouser accident. I need those GT all terra stickers, still no pic of my DH frame though every one I see is the following year's with the double kinked seat tube and trunnion mount shock, mine must be a 95 because it has a conventional shock mount with the titanium upper links and has only the single kink in the middle of the seat tube rather than at the bottom like the DS models. If anybody knows it'd be you, do you think it might be a prototype or something?

supersonic

It could be, I'll see if I can find owt else.

Shaggy_Dog

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:LTS_DH3.JPG

Here's a pic I found on google images of a complete build, I was worried that it was some bits-a-bike made up from a small front end of a new DH with an old XC back end, or something...

supersonic

I think there were a few about with modified linkage plates and stuff.

weescott

Was it not the LTS where the rocker link would commonly snap? I knew a guy was riding his right up to 3 years ago. He might even still be riding it today. 8)

Shaggy_Dog

shush! Old GT's are the best bikes ever made for no logical reason whatsoever. They are indestructable, make you a faster rider and get you laid

Anonymous

Shaggy_Dog wrote:

shush! Old GT's are the best bikes ever made for no logical reason whatsoever. They are indestructable, make you a faster rider and get you laid

Ture that. My one and only gay experience was in exchange for a spin on a GT Lobo. Bastard didn't stay true to his word

Shaggy_Dog

There you go his GT got him laid

Anonymous