Ultegra hubs for Campag bike

bice

I am wanting to build some wheels for a 10-speed, Campag Centaur Italian steel frame which has Mavic Aksium wheels.

I understand cup and cone but all Campag compatible hubs - Ambrosio Zenith for eg - are sealed bearings. I don't like the sound of them. There are Record hubs, but they are expensive and, worse, they are black.

The hubs I want to use are silver Shimano Ultegra.

If I go down this route, it means I either have to get a Campag spaced cassette with Shimano splines. I can get a 12-25 cassette from www.webbline.co.uk. They are made by Ambrosio or Marchisio, and I can get any ratios I like.

They cost £37-ish. I don't know anything about their quality.

The other alternative is to use a Shimano cassette with a Shiftmate from jtekengineering.com which will mean my Cenatur shifters work faultlessly with a Shimano cassette.

(I have got a Shimergo seven speed commuter with Shimano indexed downshifters and Miche 8-speed (7 working) on the back. It shifts at the back fine, but it's my least favoured bike as it's also a compact 50/34, which I dislike intensely. I hate the hopping about on the chainrings - and the horrible chainline - to get a decent gear. I far prefer a triple.)

Which choice is best? Or, possibly, least worst? Or should I take a closer look at Ambrosio sealed bearing hubs and opt for these? How sealed are these sealed bearings anyway? Can you check that there is some grease in them, for example?

But, then, Ulegra hubs are hugely respected, simple, cheap and excellent quality. And look good too

ballspondroad

Is it the 'sealed' part your not keen on ? Protected might be a better word than sealed.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

vorsprung

You are right to be suspicious of the ambrosio zenith hubs they are bloody awlful

Sounds like you have already made your mind up to use an Ultegra hub with a jtek shiftmate

Some other options are Miche Racing Box (cheap) , Hope Pro3 (expensive), DT SWiss (expensive) campag bodied freehubs

bice

I suppose another question is - apart from the joy of wheelbuilding and the improved looks - are a pair of Ultegra with Mavic Open Pro rims a significant qualitative improvement on my Mavic Aksiums?

(I will ride the Aksiums into the ground, obviously.)

ride_whenever

By sealed do they not mean cartridge?

In my experience these are vastly superior to c&c bearings as you can easily replace both the bearings and races in one hit. They tend to be better sealed than c&c but you can remove the seal and regrease if you are particularly keen to.

If they mean sealed bearings then they have a seal just to keep the dirt out, as you'll find on most shimano hubs as well.

chriskempton

How about Royce hubs?

bice

chriskempton wrote:

How about Royce hubs?

I have looked at them. Not sure how screw on hubs work, which are £125. Do you simply screw on a Campag or Shimano spline?

Or Venus titanium at £189 for a rear, which is overkill for me.

chriskempton

Campag splined Royce hubs are available e.g. here:

http://www.wheelroom.co.uk/shop/article ... D36.001%26

or here:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/wheelprices.htm

Not cheap but very well thought of and would look the part on the type of bike you're building.

Monty Dog

You can get Campagnolo-spaced, Shimano splined cassettes if you want to use Ultegra hubs.
Many people find the Ambrosio hubs very reliable - whilst cartridge bearings aren't quite as smooth as the best cup and cone e.g. Record - the are easy to service and replace.

balthazar

If you're determined to use Shimano hubs, I'd prefer a Campag-spaced cassette over a Shiftmate. However, I have to say that your reasoning sounds a little bloody-minded. I prefer cup and cone bearings over cartridge style too, and I've made the case for them here before: nonetheless, if cartridge bearings are required to maintain a consistent system, then I say – swallow it and use them. They'll do the job.

Sturmey Archer internal gear hubs are made with sophisticated labyrinth seals, which last for decades of hard use without attention. I don't see that engineers capable of designing such subtle and insightful systems are employed in the bicycle industry today. Shimano cup-and cone hubs are probably the best available, from an engineering perspective – but not so good that's it's worth the hassle of a mismatched gear system.

vorsprung

chriskempton wrote:

How about Royce hubs?

I have a campag 10 speed bodied Royce hub which I am building into a wheel "soon"
I got it cheap and it's wonderously light

However, I have heard that they also have weather proofing issues. And it looks difficult to service too.

pete.whelan

I use JTEK Shiftmate with Shimano splines and Ca,pag gear parts on our tandem. Works faultlessly

2alexcoo

What you really want is some 2000-2006 Campag Record, Chorus, Centaur or Daytona hubs (the last two being the same apart from the name). There are only minor differences between the various models.

They are beautifully made and look just right on an Italian steel bike. I found some NOS Daytona hubs and had them built onto Ambrosio Excellight rims, and I'm very pleased with them.

It may take a while to find some in silver, but you can get Centaur hubs in gunmetal grey from here

Robert456

I've been using silver chorus hubs since 2004 and they have prooved faultless. I wouls agree with Zalexcoo that NOS would be a good option

balthazar

Robert456 wrote:

I've been using silver chorus hubs since 2004 and they have prooved faultless. I wouls agree with Zalexcoo that NOS would be a good option

I agree, but they're damn hard to find now. I treasure my 2006 Record hubs, and wish I'd bought another set then for future use: I think they cost about £120 the pair, new. If I built some wheels for myself now, I'd be in the same quandary as the OP: I think I'd get those Daytona hubs linked to above, though I'd miss the sublime Record finish.

huuregeil

I do understand where you're coming from. I'd lined up some XT hubs to use with a shiftmate on a tourer build, until i came across some NOS 135mm spaced campag hubs at the last minute. By all accounts, the shiftmate works very well and shimano hubs are excellent. So, I wouldn't discount this option. In contrast, the ambrosio cassettes don't appear to be very good quality (Veloce level at best).

Otherwise, NOS campag hubs is probably your best bet if you're determined to use cup&cone. (Again, i see where you're coming from, I like their fettleability!).

Otherwise, cartridge bearing hubs are fine, and actually far less maintenance hassle for virtually the same performance. Run them into the ground, pop in new bearings and you're off again - maintenance intervals are much longer than cup and cone, and bearings are standard. Lots of options then... Ambrosio are excellent value (I can't fault mine), Hope's look bombproof, Royce, PMP.

bice

I am finding this quite a conundrum.

I could just go with the Ambrosio Zenith hubs, which look absolutely great in appearance - I want shiny silver hubs - but there is quite a bit of not that positive stuff about their performance.

I intend to make up these wheels myself, which is not something I want to do with iffy hubs.

The other suggestion is that I get that pair of Centaur hubs for £109.94, but they are gun metal grey. This means they won't really look ideal ...

Given that I can't find a pair of 10 speed hubs second hand, I am going to have to compromise on appearance.

Of course, there is Royce, but they get so-so reviews for coping with weather, and they are sealed. Then there is Phil Wood - but that really is serious money just for the silver finish, which seems a bit frivolous.

Which means I might as well buy a black 2009 Record hub for £106.96, and either spend out for another Record hub on the front, or mix and have a silver one of any type.

huuregeil

What's your budget? If you want: silver, solid (irrespective of the bearing type) and very well sealed, campag, and not break the bank, then you'd be hard-pressed to go wrong with either Hope or Goldtec hubs. Both UK made too. Either will be around £200 for the pair.

Robert456

Harry Rowlands recommends Ambrosio Zenith, why don't you chat to him, could solve your problems for looks, budget and hopefully performance? I've no experience of Ambrosio hubs so can't comment on them, but he is a very respected wheel builder.

balthazar

@bice: Phil hubs use cartridge bearings too, don't they? So you're back where you started.

Honestly, I'd just accept cartridge bearings and use the Ambrosio hubs. You won't have to change the bearings more often than every year or two, and they'll no doubt drift out easily (disclaimer: this is an assumption, I've never used them). Sometimes an idealogical objection can hamstring you (I know this...!).

cooper.michael1

You can make a Shimano 10speed cassette work very well with an all Campag system, i've done it on a few occasions. One of my current bikes has Veloce 10sp, with an Ultegra 10sp cassette....shifts flawlessly, as good as if it were made for each other, you just have to set it up slightly differently, let me know if you want to know how do it, becuase it'll take me 10mins to type out. No dodgy cable routings but if you try to set it up normally, it wont work well at all.

Alternatively those ambrosio conversion cassettes are £29.99 here

http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/17 ... sette.html

bice

[quote="balthazarSometimes an idealogical objection can hamstring you (I know this...!).[/quote]

Nothing ideological. I am not a bike nostalgic. I have done cup and cone bearings and understand them, while cartridge/sealed bearings might be fine or may be not and there's nothing much you can do about it.

Then there's the lack of Campag hubs, except Record in black which, some say, are a bit delicate with fractures around the spoke holes. Meanwhile, Shimano has an array of old style hubs which virtually no one, it appears, has a bad won't against.

Yesterday I was poised to get some Ambrosio Zeniths, today I am more inclined to Shimano again and a Shimano splined Campag cassette.

For I am now thinking of another advantage of Shimano: the wheels would be interchangeable with my Trek 1.7, so they could stand in readiness for whichever pair of Mavic Aksiums (on the Lazzaretti) or Bontrager (on the Trek) I trash first. No point in them not being ridden to death, IMO.

bice

After going round and round, I went for Ultegra and I will use a Shiftmate keeping the use of the Campag cassette on the Lazzaretti. OTOH, I might make up them up for the Trek until winter gets me onto my £27 mixte iron horse.

cooper.michael1

If you've got a Shimano Cassette, then try it without the Shiftmate, you may be suprised.

The Spoket pitch for Campag 10sp is 4.15mm for Shimano it is 3.95mm, a difference of 0.2mm per gear. There are 9 'clicks' throughout the 10speed block.

If you set up the rear mech so that the 6th sproket of the cassette is spot-on, rather than the first, as you would conventionally do (you use the rear mech barrell adjuster to dial it in perfectly), then the margins of error are as follows.

1. Position determined by limit screw.
2. -0.8mm
3. -0.6mm
4. -0.4mm
5. -0.2mm
6. 0mm (perfectly dialed in)
7. +0.2mm
8. +0.4mm
9. +0.6mm
10.Position determined by limit screw.

Therefore, at the extremities of the cassette the most it is out is 0.8 mm, which make no difference at all. If anything the extra care you put into setting up the system means it shifts equally as well as if it were made for each other. The floating guide pulley on the rear mech shifts about 1mm to either side, and this seemingly more than compensates.

Now for those who say, it may work when new, but not in the long term. Well i've used this system for 3000miles of riding so far. Veloce Ergos, Veloce Mechs, Ultegra Cassette and only adjusted it when I replaced the chain at about 2000miles of riding.

0.8mm, and despite that Shimano/Campag/Sram would have you believe their systems are not that accurate/precise..tolerances have to be built in otherwise you'd have to re-adjust your gearing after almost every ride.

bice

cooper.michael1 wrote:

If you've got a Shimano Cassette, then try it without the Shiftmate, you may be suprised.

The Spoket pitch for Campag 10sp is 4.15mm for Shimano it is 3.95mm, a difference of 0.2mm per gear. There are 9 'clicks' throughout the 10speed block.

If you set up the rear mech so that the 6th sproket of the cassette is spot-on, rather than the first, as you would conventionally do (you use the rear mech barrell adjuster to dial it in perfectly), then the margins of error are as follows.

1. Position determined by limit screw.
2. -0.8mm
3. -0.6mm
4. -0.4mm
5. -0.2mm
6. 0mm (perfectly dialed in)
7. +0.2mm
8. +0.4mm
9. +0.6mm
10.Position determined by limit screw.

Therefore, at the extremities of the cassette the most it is out is 0.8 mm, which make no difference at all. If anything the extra care you put into setting up the system means it shifts equally as well as if it were made for each other. The floating guide pulley on the rear mech shifts about 1mm to either side, and this seemingly more than compensates.

Now for those who say, it may work when new, but not in the long term. Well i've used this system for 3000miles of riding so far. Veloce Ergos, Veloce Mechs, Ultegra Cassette and only adjusted it when I replaced the chain at about 2000miles of riding.

0.8mm, and despite that Shimano/Campag/Sram would have you believe their systems are not that accurate/precise..tolerances have to be built in otherwise you'd have to re-adjust your gearing after almost every ride.

I set up gears aligning the second smallest cog to the third, as the chain falls to the smallest according to the limit screws.

I will look into this, but have doubts that its is an acceptable, permanent set-up. Plenty of others have had issues mixing stuff. I use an indexed 7 speed downtube shifter on an 8 speed Miche (Campag) cassette on an old Ciocc steel frame. I cannot use the lowest gear obviously and it shifts fine. But this is one of those combinations where there is no difference between Campag and Shimano in shifting. But ... it's my least favourite bike (probably because it is a 50/34 compact, the cr@ppiest of all cr@p combinations, in my experience).

balthazar

bice wrote:

Nothing ideological. I am not a bike nostalgic. I have done cup and cone bearings and understand them, while cartridge/sealed bearings might be fine or may be not and there's nothing much you can do about it.

When I wrote (well, misspelled) ideological objection, I meant it exactly. I don't advocate nostalgia either, and favour old style wheel bearings for technical reasons. However, sometimes the world works differently and it's easier, ultimately, to capitulate. Still, good luck.

cooper.michael1

Yeah I suppose it depends on what you think is acceptable, but if you spend the time setting it up, the Campag/Shimano Mix it shifts very very well. I have full 2009 Shimano XT on my other bike and it is certainly the equal of that.

If I had any idea how to make a youtube video, I'd make one to show it shifting, as no one believes me about this!

pjm-84

You can make a Shimano 10speed cassette work very well with an all Campag system.

+1 (until I'm blue in the face)

Much prefer my Campag setup with the Shimano cassette. Like you I've done a fair bit of mileage without a single issue

(Note - Running a Campag cassette on Shimano system does not work!)

cooper.michael1

pjm-84 wrote:

You can make a Shimano 10speed cassette work very well with an all Campag system.

+1 (until I'm blue in the face)

Much prefer my Campag setup with the Shimano cassette. Like you I've done a fair bit of mileage without a single issue

(Note - Running a Campag cassette on Shimano system does not work!)

Haha, yeah tell me about it. People are so convinced it wont work, even if they have all the components to give it a try, they'd rather fork out good money for some compatability solution. It works spot on, just takes a little bit longer to setup, but people just dont accept it, what can you do?...just let us enjoy it, and save a bit of money in the process!

pjm-84

What's even better is I'm 100kg +, push out about 1700 watts and never had an issue. Don't even have a problem with set up. I found out about it in 2006 by just giving it a try.

I mentioned this to an LBS at the time. Their response was yeah we know!

bice

Thanks to everyone’s views on this, which gave me plenty to think about.

I have been puzzled why I have taken against cartridge/sealed bearings so much, when I am not nostalgic about old tech.

At the back of my mind, was fitting a BB with a bearing race set with nine ball bearings. It was just such an obviously bad, inferior arrangement to putting in 11 loose ball bearings. So I just think that anything that complicates having a ball bearing in contact with the moving part is not being done for my benefit.

Anyway, here are three of my bikes.

Both the road bikes have cheap mass produced wheels with sealed bearings. The 30 year old Carlton Courette, which cost me £27, has its original 27 inch wheels on Soma (Suma?) hubs that I re-packed with grease two months ago.

Spin the wheels on the Trek 1.7 (2009, Ultegra/105. Bontrager wheels) or the Lazzaretti (c.1996 frame. Columbus Nivacrome steel. Self build with mixed Campag. Mavic Aksium wheels) and the wheels just come to a stop.

Spin the wheels on the Carlton Courette and the wheels come to the end of their spin, pause, and then go back the other way as the wheel settles with is heaviest bit at the bottom. The front does this a few times, the rear wheel just moves back a bit until its comes against chain resistance.

Both the road bikes have magnets on the spokes, but these don’t settle at the bottom of the spin.

Doesn’t this mean I have better hubs on my £27 iron horse than on my road bikes (which admittedly have cheap wheels)?

How much do you have to pay for hubs with sealed bearings, where the wheel will rock back and forth and settle with the heaviest bit at the bottom?

In the end, this is why I will put Shimano hubs on a Campag build.