Anyone using disc brakes on their commuter?

SitoUK

Hi there. The reason I am asking is the follwing: I've had my bike for about 1.5 years and it came with Avid Juicy Three disc brakes. The power, modulation and general feel of these brakes is superb and way better than the V-brakes on my old bike, especially in the wet.

Adjusting them is a nightmare though. They are basically self-adjusting when means when they're dragging there's not much you can do apart from loosen and retighten the bolts that hold them on the frame. I've learned to accept some drag, there' just no way around it with these brakes it seems.

This morning I spoke to my LBS and he says the pistons on Avid brakes have to be kept clean for them to self-adjust properly, as the commuting-grit and dirt will sort of slightly block them. Unfortunately to clean them you have to take the whole thing apart and bleed them which is not really practical on a regular basis. He says (and I don't have a clue if he's right) that Shimano disc brakes are much better in this respect.

Therefore I'd really be interested what disc brakes you are using and if you have any problems with them or if everything works fine? Do you have to do a lot of maintenance to achieve proper performance?

bails87

Might be worth asking on the MTB forum, much more disc brake experience there.

Have you tried resetting the pistons.

And does the LBS sell Shimano disc brakes by any chance?

Aidy

bails87 wrote:

And does the LBS sell Shimano disc brakes by any chance?

In all fairness, the servowave brakes are supposed to be much better in this respect.

cee

I have avid elixirs on my every day bike...commuting...riding trails etc...

6 months of commuting + at least 2 mountain bike rides each week...and none of the issues you describe...

I wouldn't be undoing the mount bolts very often...if its aligned properly...then its aligned.

Sounds like next time you have to change the pads, you should do a strip, clean and re-bleed...then make sure the caliper is aligned to the disc properly...do this before putting in the pads...some people tend to put the pads in, loosen the mount bolts, pull the brake and tighten them again, but I think its better to align it all properly by eye, then let the pistons self adjust...

all hydraulic disc brakes self adjust...i.e..the pad wears down, you pull the brake..more fluid is pushed, then when you release, it hydraulics back a little.

I have tried shimano, hayes, hope and 2 types of avid brakes...and to be honest...they all work. some folk will have a story about one or more not working for them...as with every other thing..but as long as they are set up properly...they all worked really well for me.

currently, I have the elixirs on the hardtail, avid codes on the dh bike, hopes on my girlies bike, hayes lent to a mate, and dont use he shimano....my preference is to use a brake that uses dot fluid instead of mneral oil...hence the shimanos being relegated to the spares cupboard.

danowat

I've got promax pieces of rubbish on my hybrid, they are a nightmare, espeically the rear gumming up, I'll change them when I can muster the effort to......

Stuey01

I have two mountain bikes, one with avids and one with hopes. The avids are much more difficult to keep working properly and suffer from rub and screeching significantly more than the hopes. Hopes are great, but pricey.

What I have found helps with the avids is to clamp them on overnight (use a bit of string or elastic bands to hold the levers against the bars), then release them in the morning and give them a few pumps of the lever. This seems to help.

For a commuter I would be running cable operated avid bb7s.

mudcovered

SitoUK wrote:

This morning I spoke to my LBS and he says the pistons on Avid brakes have to be kept clean for them to self-adjust properly, as the commuting-grit and dirt will sort of slightly block them. Unfortunately to clean them you have to take the whole thing apart and bleed them which is not really practical on a regular basis. He says (and I don't have a clue if he's right) that Shimano disc brakes are much better in this respect.

:shock: They are joking aren't they? The brake you are using is designed for MTB offroad use so I'd expect it to be designed to cope with levels of dirt and grit way beyond what you could generate commuting on road. As others have said I smell an LBS trying to sell you some new brakes and brake levers.

I run some really old Hope Mini calipers on my MTB which was used for commuting winter and summer for many years . I've had them for over 10 years (~7000miles of off and on road riding) and the front has been bled once (when I changed forks and needed a different half caliper to mount to the new one). The rear one may never have been bled in its entire life (unless my LBS had to do it when replacing the frame under warranty. Never had any problems with stuck piston or brake drag. Only thing I struggle with is pushing the piston back when I change pads (requires a surprising amount of force to do).

Do ask on the MTB tech forum as they may be able to suggest some simple tricks to get things moving again without resorting to regular bleeds.

Mike

SitoUK

thanks for your replies.

Yes, I must say I thought the same, when commuting dirt causes this, then proper dirt dirt should be at least as bad! But then, my LBS are generally nice guys and they did not make any attempt to sell me a Shimano brake, he just mentioned they might be better, I did not ask why as I was in a hurry....

Having said that I am riding this bike 20km each day, in absolutely every weather, so I can see how you could accumulate a lot of fine dirt in the brakes. And maybe this fine dirt, 'road dust and grime' or whatever you wanna call it, maybe salt in winter, could possibly be more damaging than the more' substantial' dirt of a MTB trail...I don't know....

I reckon I'll post a question on the MTB forum about cleaning, I've never bled a disc brake, maybe it's a really easy thing to do? I'll have to try I guess ;-) I just never wanna do these things cause I know I'll need the bike the next day, so If I don't get the brakes back together in the right way the next morning I have a problem ;-)

GMRK

cee wrote:

...some people tend to put the pads in, loosen the mount bolts, pull the brake and tighten them again, but I think its better to align it all properly by eye, then let the pistons self adjust...

I had a problem aligning a front hydraulic disk brake and couldn't get rid of drag as I think the rotor was very slightly out of true.

If you spin the wheel with the bolts slightly loose (not too much just enought to allow a bit of movement), gradually apply the brake so the wheel can make a couple of rotations until the brakes are fully applied, then keep the brake applied and tighten the bolts this should align and seat the brake unit properly. The pistons should then self adjust after the first few times the brake is used. Worked for me at least.

bails87

One thing you could do is take the pads out, and with the caliper removed from the frame (or take the wheel out) pump the lever a few times to extend the pistons out, keep an eye on it and don't do it too far. Keep the pistons at least a pads width apart. Once they're out give them a bit of a clean, remove any muck and dirt, and put a drop of brake fluid on the sides of the pistons. Then push the pistons (carefully) back using something like a plastic tyre lever.

My Juicy 7s were extending slightly unevenly (one side more than the other/one side not auto-adjusting), I did this and they're fine now.

cee

GMRK wrote:

cee wrote:

...some people tend to put the pads in, loosen the mount bolts, pull the brake and tighten them again, but I think its better to align it all properly by eye, then let the pistons self adjust...

I had a problem aligning a front hydraulic disk brake and couldn't get rid of drag as I think the rotor was very slightly out of true.

If you spin the wheel with the bolts slightly loose (not too much just enought to allow a bit of movement), gradually apply the brake so the wheel can make a couple of rotations until the brakes are fully applied, then keep the brake applied and tighten the bolts this should align and seat the brake unit properly. The pistons should then self adjust after the first few times the brake is used. Worked for me at least.

true...although this assumes that the pistons will push exactly evenly on both sides. my feeling is that they do not always (as described by bails above), particularly when they have dirt on the sides., hence why i don't think this will always align. it probably does in most cases, but my ocd like things to be right from the get go.

The other issue can be, that some spacer washers are cupped into each other, to allow a bit of adjustment to the angle of the caliper, in relation to the frame. so in these cases, you are more likely to make it worse.

Why not just true the rotor? 2 adjustable spanners is all you need.

GMRK

cee wrote:

GMRK wrote:

cee wrote:

...some people tend to put the pads in, loosen the mount bolts, pull the brake and tighten them again, but I think its better to align it all properly by eye, then let the pistons self adjust...

I had a problem aligning a front hydraulic disk brake and couldn't get rid of drag as I think the rotor was very slightly out of true.

If you spin the wheel with the bolts slightly loose (not too much just enought to allow a bit of movement), gradually apply the brake so the wheel can make a couple of rotations until the brakes are fully applied, then keep the brake applied and tighten the bolts this should align and seat the brake unit properly. The pistons should then self adjust after the first few times the brake is used. Worked for me at least.

true...although this assumes that the pistons will push exactly evenly on both sides. my feeling is that they do not always (as described by bails above), particularly when they have dirt on the sides., hence why i don't think this will always align. it probably does in most cases, but my ocd like things to be right from the get go.

The other issue can be, that some spacer washers are cupped into each other, to allow a bit of adjustment to the angle of the caliper, in relation to the frame. so in these cases, you are more likely to make it worse.

Why not just true the rotor? 2 adjustable spanners is all you need.

I wasn't dismissing what you said, just that simply pulling the brake without spinning the wheel didn't really work for me.

My rotor was so close to true it was barely discernable, it would run fine for days then 'sing' as the pad started to catch it, a good pull and quick release was usually enough to quiten it again. I eventually needed to replace the pads and had to reseat the unit, the only way I could align it without rubbing was with a good spin and slow application of brake. Brakes are Hayes 9 with sintered pads, tolerances are fairly close.

I made the mistake of pushing back on the pad retaining pin not the main part of the caliper when I released them to replace the pads, luckily didn't bend the pin.

SitoUK

thanks, I might try that. What exactly is brake fluid? The same stuff that's running in the hoses?

P.S. I think that is exactly what is happening on mine..the pistons aren't extending evenly...

bails87 wrote:

One thing you could do is take the pads out, and with the caliper removed from the frame (or take the wheel out) pump the lever a few times to extend the pistons out, keep an eye on it and don't do it too far. Keep the pistons at least a pads width apart. Once they're out give them a bit of a clean, remove any muck and dirt, and put a drop of brake fluid on the sides of the pistons. Then push the pistons (carefully) back using something like a plastic tyre lever.

My Juicy 7s were extending slightly unevenly (one side more than the other/one side not auto-adjusting), I did this and they're fine now.

ride_whenever

Or get them stripped and cleaned by your lbs, then learn to brake bleeding.

The avid kit is a bit steep, but it does actually work. You can bodge it yourself if you know what parts you'll need.

FrankM

bails87 wrote:

One thing you could do is take the pads out, and with the caliper removed from the frame (or take the wheel out) pump the lever a few times to extend the pistons out, keep an eye on it and don't do it too far. Keep the pistons at least a pads width apart. Once they're out give them a bit of a clean, remove any muck and dirt, and put a drop of brake fluid on the sides of the pistons. Then push the pistons (carefully) back using something like a plastic tyre lever.

I agree. I have Shimano XT disc brakes and I have to do this every few months after using my bike for commuting.

flateric

use shimano deore on my MTB, never touched em apart froma new set of pads this year, not gunked up yet, run well,

Interesting comments on the drag, are disc brakes meant to drag a bit?

Jay dubbleU

flateric wrote:

use shimano deore on my MTB, never touched em apart froma new set of pads this year, not gunked up yet, run well,

Interesting comments on the drag, are disc brakes meant to drag a bit?

I have Shimano Deore mechanical discs on my commuter - no drag, no dirt issues - I occasionally adjust them when lever travel gets a bit much.

OrangePro

I ran magura julie's on my roadrat for 6 months then had major faff with constantly lossing pressure, pistons sticking, air blocks in the main housing- all sorts of problems that just to long to fix. Eventually swapped them for basic shimano v's with koolstop dual compound pads and have never looked back - so easy to maintain.

jonny_trousers

Having very nearly found myself taking the number 3 bus from behind yesterday evening, I was thinking about the practicality of running disc brakes on a commuter, but then I remembered what a nightmare the Tektro Lyra ones were for rubbing on my old hybrid. The replacement Avid was way better, but still a bit of a pain. If I ever went for it again I would have to buy the best cable ones on the market.

nicklouse

SitoUK wrote:

. They are basically self-adjusting when means when they're dragging there's not much you can do apart from loosen and retighten the bolts that hold them on the frame.

wrong bolts.

the bolts that hold the caliper to the adaptor.



maybe a refresher read of the manual.

and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=138

and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=142
and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=125

tjwood

I've had both Avid Juicy 3 and Juicy 5 brakes in the past. They're both a nightmare to keep running freely, as your LBS chap said the pistons seem to get stuck up with dirt (whether road muck or trail muck, all the same..).

Cleaning the pistons by spraying the brakes with brake-safe cleaner, working them a few times, then rinsing with a hose helps, though the problems will reoccur.

I now have some Hope brakes instead (on an MTB), which are excellent, and don't suffer the same problems, though rather overkill for a commuter!

SitoUK

thanks for the links, very useful, I'll read through that. I was fiddling with the right bolts by the way, just used the wrong terminology it seems ;-) I only did that after I'd watched the LBS do it first of course...

nicklouse wrote:

SitoUK wrote:

. They are basically self-adjusting when means when they're dragging there's not much you can do apart from loosen and retighten the bolts that hold them on the frame.

wrong bolts.

the bolts that hold the caliper to the adaptor.



maybe a refresher read of the manual.

and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=138

and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=142
and
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=125

snailracer

Jay dubbleU wrote:

flateric wrote:

use shimano deore on my MTB, never touched em apart froma new set of pads this year, not gunked up yet, run well,

Interesting comments on the drag, are disc brakes meant to drag a bit?

I have Shimano Deore mechanical discs on my commuter - no drag, no dirt issues - I occasionally adjust them when lever travel gets a bit much.

Drag was very common on the original MTB disk brakes from the 90's and was deliberately designed in. The dragging, wiping action kept mud and grit out of the gap between pads and rotors, so they were ready for the instant braking needed for serious MTB action. Obviously, on the road, this "feature" is just a nuisance.

tjwood

snailracer wrote:

Drag was very common on the original MTB disk brakes from the 90's and was deliberately designed in. The dragging, wiping action kept mud and grit out of the gap between pads and rotors, so they were ready for the instant braking needed for serious MTB action.

That sounds a bit like clever marketing BS to me.

"What, that rubbing noise? No, that's not shoddy engineering. It's...um...er...a feature! That's what it is!"

Stevo_666

Very handy links there Mr Louse 8)

I have Avid Elixir R's on my commuter and they have had the sticky calliper syndrome. I now know how to fix it. My MTB (which is only used off road and see a lot more muck) has Shimano XT's and has never had this problem...

dav1

I run juicy 5s on my MTB and I have had these issues.

Managed to fix it but the rub always seems to come back. Should probably get the rear rebuilt by my LBS but its OK at the moment so I am living with it. I absolutely love the performance of the brakes though so fully intend to stick with them.

Try these to fix it, all easy enough to do at home.

1. get the brake lever vertical (so the screw on the resivoir on the lever faces straight up) and loosen the torx bolt, see if any oil comes out. This cured the issue on my front brake when I did it.

2. Remove the pads, pump the lever a little (leave enough room to get a round 8mm spanner in to push the piston back) do both pistons move?
If they do not reset the pistons, hole the free moving one with the spanner and pump the lever to get the sticky one moving. Lube it with some dot fluid (comes in the avid bleed kit), reset it and wipe away the excess. Repeat this a few times.

3. Try to true the rotor

4. Try a bleed.

I use these above steps and most of my issues have been fixed by doing this. If you are unsure, or still have issues it may be worth getting them looked at by your LBS.

Hope this helps.

snailracer

tjwood wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Drag was very common on the original MTB disk brakes from the 90's and was deliberately designed in. The dragging, wiping action kept mud and grit out of the gap between pads and rotors, so they were ready for the instant braking needed for serious MTB action.

That sounds a bit like clever marketing BS to me.

"What, that rubbing noise? No, that's not shoddy engineering. It's...um...er...a feature! That's what it is!"

I remember a 1990's magazine article interviewing pro mountain biking champion Shaun Palmer. His bike setup was discussed, and he had zero-clearance (ie dragging) disk brakes for the reasons I mentioned. Also, less clearance meant less hand strength was required for a given level of braking, which counts if you are going down a steep, technical route on an actual (ie big) mountain.

In the serious/downhill MTB context, brake squeal, drag and the resultant excessive rotor wear are not important if it means the brakes work better in a race. However, these days (unlike in the 90's) disc brakes are found on every Tom, Dick and Harry bike (even COMMUTERS) where those uncouth attributes are unacceptable.