And the winner is Dutch perfect no flat in 700 x 28c yes 28c
sparkman
Posts: 74
I started a thread a while back about a good tyre for a Giant Defy 3.
I needed to use the bike on road, canal toe paths and cycle tracks, Have gone through every tyre I can think of in 23c and 25c I now have Maxxis refuse, Gators, GP 4 seasons, and pro 3s sitting on my shelf. The tyre of choice and a hands down winner was Dutch Perfect no flat in 28c.
Who would have believed a tyre with a max psi of 75lbs could out do the others ? Well it has, and whats all this about rolling resistance. On a long climb out of chew valley, the three guys I ride with were shocked to say the least. He's still with us !! We discussed the situation and agreed all this tech stuff is fine for the tour de France, but in the real world I kept pace with no real differance other than ride quality, Much Much smoother.My mate Steve is the kind of guy who would have argued the point in the pub, at the bar. But face to face at the top of the hill together, well what could he say, I mean I was there, not half a mile down the road, but at his side !!?
I am very pleased with my choice, and felt the need to share my new found discovery. And yes I am still shocked at the outcome.
I needed to use the bike on road, canal toe paths and cycle tracks, Have gone through every tyre I can think of in 23c and 25c I now have Maxxis refuse, Gators, GP 4 seasons, and pro 3s sitting on my shelf. The tyre of choice and a hands down winner was Dutch Perfect no flat in 28c.
Who would have believed a tyre with a max psi of 75lbs could out do the others ? Well it has, and whats all this about rolling resistance. On a long climb out of chew valley, the three guys I ride with were shocked to say the least. He's still with us !! We discussed the situation and agreed all this tech stuff is fine for the tour de France, but in the real world I kept pace with no real differance other than ride quality, Much Much smoother.My mate Steve is the kind of guy who would have argued the point in the pub, at the bar. But face to face at the top of the hill together, well what could he say, I mean I was there, not half a mile down the road, but at his side !!?
I am very pleased with my choice, and felt the need to share my new found discovery. And yes I am still shocked at the outcome.
0
Comments
-
28 ? :shock:Level 3 Road & Time Trial Coach, Level 2 Track Coach.
Blackpool Clarion CC
http://blackpoolclarion.webs.com/
Blackpool Youth Cycling Association
http://www.go-ride-byca.org0 -
Yes Carly, they are 28c not 23 or even 25, but 28 on a Giant Defy, and loads of clearance.
Sorry for not explaining, Softlad, I like many have always felt that a narrow tire with higher pressures ie 120 lbs vs 75, would in theory roll much better and therefore on a hill climb as an example, you would be much quicker to the top. In reality there was no real differance. As said I kept pace, on the Dutch perfects 28c 75lbs psi, in exactly the same way as on the 23c 120lbs psi GP 4s. Fitness levels of the four of us is more or less about the same. The other lads are on various 23c tyres. As said we were all suprised at the outcome. The other lads have mountain bikes as well as road bikes, so best of both worlds. But we were all on roadbikes at the time.0 -
0
-
sparkman wrote:Sorry for not explaining, Softlad, I like many have always felt that a narrow tire with higher pressures ie 120 lbs vs 75, would in theory roll much better and therefore on a hill climb as an example, you would be much quicker to the top.
you are mistaken fella - a rock hard tyre will never roll as well as a softer tyre and the tyre's width doesn't really come into it. If there is a bit of give in the tyre, it is far more likely to absorb road bumps, whereas a rockhard tyres will lose forward momentum by hammering into everything.
I train on a set of Conti Grand Prix 24mm - I usually run these at around 95psi for general road riding, but I have run them as low as 80 and the ride is far better and no slower.
You probably would have had the same effect by just letting a bit of air out of your original tyres, and you would probably have been less puncture prone too...0 -
Thanks for the replies Softlad,
Yes have tried running 23s at lower pressures for sure. The main reason for the 28s is they inspire confidence on the canal tow paths, not so skippy has the 23s. I was just very surprised at how well the Dutchperfects performed on the road, riding with others. It makes you wonder if the feel good/faster factor of a racy high pressure tyre, is more Psychological than science. The 28s definately give a more comfy ride.
The 28s fit with plenty of clearance on the Defy which is an added bonus.
My mate Dave is trying a set on his Specialized Roady, as he put it just for a laugh.
But they all agree it hasn't slowed me up, well only when drinking, cus I don't stop talking about it. 0 -
How much do the weigh? I bet they weigh a lot more than a good 23c tyre like the Michelin Pro Race 3. More weight means more effort is required to accelerate them. That's a fact. Whether it makes a real world difference for you out for a ride with your mates is another question.More problems but still living....0
-
If they fit your Giant fine does that maybe indicate that for a nominal 28c they are a narrow fit on the tyre in reality ?
Lower pressure can lead to greater risk of pinch flats where the tyre allows deformation to the poitn where the tyre and hence inner tube be will pinched against the rim.0 -
amaferanga wrote:How much do the weigh? I bet they weigh a lot more than a good 23c tyre like the Michelin Pro Race 3. More weight means more effort is required to accelerate them. That's a fact. Whether it makes a real world difference for you out for a ride with your mates is another question.
I was thinking something along these lines too. I have no proof etc but it may well be likely that whilst you climbed at the same speed the extra weight and lower pressure means you would have used up more energy than you would have on say a lighter 23c harder tyre? So on longer runs where you are pushing harder you could find that you run out of puff sooner?
At least this is what my brain is telling me logically. I can understand why you're liking the benefits you mention of a softer wider tyre though. I just think there is a little more to it that simply keeping up with your mates up a hill.
0 -
Andyrr
Lower pressure can lead to greater risk of pinch flats where the tyre allows deformation to the poitn where the tyre and hence inner tube be will pinched against the rim.
Andy the 75lbs psi is the max design pressure for the dutchperfects, so they are not being run under-inflated. I dont think pinch flats would be an issue. As far as the other comments, I would agree, The hill climb I mentioned was at the end of a 70 mile ride, not a huge distance I agree but certainly reasonable. As I said its not tour de france riding, just a fairly quick pace as lads in a group tend to do. I will see what happens over time, but if I am keeping up now and your theory's are correct. When I switch back to 23c GP 4000s at full pressure. I should leave them all for dust. Just finding it a big surprise from what I expected. :shock: 
0 -
I have had slick treaded Dutch Perfect 27 x 1 1/4 inch tyres on my old bike for several years of riding on roads, tracks & towpaths with, tempting fate by saying it, no punctures. They ride a bit hard but they are tough! The back's now getting worn out and sadly it seems 27 inchers are no longer made by them. The first time I took my new touring bike out on my regular route the Continental Top Tourings were breached by a rather insignificant thorn.0
-
I'm sure I've raved on here before about the benefits of running fatter tyres at lower pressures, so I won't repeat. All I'll say is:
a) I'm not surprised!
b) 25mm PR3s run fat (measure 26-27mm mounted) and are light, grippy, comfy, and extremely fast. They're my tyre of choice, I won't go near 23mms any more (except for my TT wheels!).
@Paul23uk - it's not necessarily the case that hard means fast. Hard does mean fast when talking about casing losses (i.e. the energy lost because the casing of your tyre deforms).As softlad said, they are also suspension losses (i.e. the energy lost by bouncing around on rough bits) to consider on anything but perfectly smooth roads and, here, hard means slow. So, there's a trade-off and, from where I'm sitting, 23mm isn't the sweet spot in the real world!0 -
PS Paselas in 28mm also make a good and fast road tyre.0
-
Looks like there is information to support my findings, its all about application but the wider lower pressure tyre does have a place amongst the pack and its way more comfy.
Why do wide tires roll better than narrower tires?
The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is flattened
a little under load. This creates a flat contact area.
At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same
contact area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow
tire has a slimmer but longer contact area.
The flattened area can be considered detrimental to tire rotation.
Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel loses
more of its “roundness” and produces more deformation during the
rotation. In a wide tire, the flattened area is shorter in length and does
not have so much effect on the rotation. The tire stays “rounder” and
therefore it rolls better.
Above all, a bicycle with narrow tires is much easier to accelerate
because the rotating mass of the wheels is lower and the bicycle is
much more agile.
But at a constant speed of around 20 km/h, the ride is better with wider
tires. In practice, the energy saving is even greater than in theory as the
elasticity of the tires absorbs road shocks, which would otherwise be
transferred to the rider and so saves energy.0 -
One more valid point for anyone interested. The Dutchperfect is a comparitively narrow 28c as manufacturers go. its true width is 26.5 fitted to the rim. The rims on the Defy are really designed for 25c maximum. This equates to a 13c internal rim width.
I mentione this because another make of 28c could prove to wide so bear this in mind. I saythis because my mate tried 28c in schwalbe on the same width as mine and they were way, way, bigger ie true 28c. However the Dutch perfect is no problem 0 -
Dutch Perfects are the most terrible tyre ever devised
In their favour they are very puncture resistant.
Against, they have the ride quality of wood. You might as well have solid tyres
They are also very heavy and difficult to fit
If you want a heavy bomb proof tyre of this sort then Schwalbe Marathons are much better
As for a lighter tyre Panaracer Paselas are good. So are Vittoria Rubino Pro Tech
I put it to you that you are better at riding a bike uphill than your miate Steve. It is not the tyres it is your legs0 -
Coming back to road bikes after a spell with mtb's, I thought 23's looked just too skinny, and 100psi sounded too hard.
For the new bike I specced 25mm Conti 4 seasons. Not had a pinch flat in 2 years, and frequently find I've been riding around on quite low pressures. Highest I go is 80/90 F/R.
I still haven't ridden a bike with 23mm tyres so I can't offer any useful comparison, but I find the bike pretty comfy (alu frame / carbon fork / crappy roads)0 -
sparkman wrote:Looks like there is information to support my findings, its all about application but the wider lower pressure tyre does have a place amongst the pack and its way more comfy.
Why do wide tires roll better than narrower tires?
The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is flattened
a little under load. This creates a flat contact area.
At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same
contact area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow
tire has a slimmer but longer contact area.
The flattened area can be considered detrimental to tire rotation.
Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel loses
more of its “roundness” and produces more deformation during the
rotation. In a wide tire, the flattened area is shorter in length and does
not have so much effect on the rotation. The tire stays “rounder” and
therefore it rolls better.
Above all, a bicycle with narrow tires is much easier to accelerate
because the rotating mass of the wheels is lower and the bicycle is
much more agile.
But at a constant speed of around 20 km/h, the ride is better with wider
tires. In practice, the energy saving is even greater than in theory as the
elasticity of the tires absorbs road shocks, which would otherwise be
transferred to the rider and so saves energy.huuregeil wrote:
PostPosted Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:21 pmReply with quote Report Post
I'm sure I've raved on here before about the benefits of running fatter tyres at lower pressures, so I won't repeat. All I'll say is:
a) I'm not surprised!
b) 25mm PR3s run fat (measure 26-27mm mounted) and are light, grippy, comfy, and extremely fast. They're my tyre of choice, I won't go near 23mms any more (except for my TT wheels!).
@Paul23uk - it's not necessarily the case that hard means fast. Hard does mean fast when talking about casing losses (i.e. the energy lost because the casing of your tyre deforms).As softlad said, they are also suspension losses (i.e. the energy lost by bouncing around on rough bits) to consider on anything but perfectly smooth roads and, here, hard means slow. So, there's a trade-off and, from where I'm sitting, 23mm isn't the
sweet spot in the real world!
... and others...
I'm so glad that at least some people nowadays are capable of thinking outside the box.
I find it hilarious that so many amateur riders invest in expensive bikes and then rob themselves of speed comfort and grip by using tyres too narrow for their weight and type/state of the roads, because "that's what everyone in peleton/club/forum" uses or because "they feel fast"
Manufacturers also don't help much by restricting the tyre clearance on bikes and practically not offering top performance tyres in 25mm+ sizes.
Like most of people I started with 23mm then I was experimenting with 25, 28 and other widths. I've recently ended up with Rivendell Jack Browns 35mm (DIY tubelss)
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... owns-24097
I usually don't put more than 55PSI rear and 45PSI front and damn they are fast and so comfy. The inconvenient (for some) truth is that at various higher pressures they roll better (at typical cruising speeds) than 23mm 8)0 -
have a read of this (a pdf) from schwalbe. Around page 16 is the stuff that's pretty interesting.
There is a paper done my a german phd student that is also quite interesting. But it agrees with your observations, which mtbers have know for aaaaages! That said i run 20mm PR3 on my roadie at a relatively low 100psi0 -
How a tyre rolls is surely a combination of many factors: the nature of the surface on which it rolls, the hardness or "stickiness" of the tyre rubber, the tyre width and cross section profile and of course the pressure not to mention the laws of physics. A thinner tyre will have a smaller contact area than a wider one of the same pressure and I cannot accept the view they would have the same contact area otherwise why have such thin tyres? Equally a higher pressure will give a smaller contact area and therefore lower rolling resistance. Motorists have been told for years that under inflated tyres will use more fuel - a cyclist will use more energy. With so many factors involved the effects of tyre width & pressure may or may not be significant on how we see our efforts but who would choose to ride an MTB with 2 inch wide tyres on tarmac?
With regard to pinch punctures one must assume the tyre designer has taken account of wall strength and recommended pressure in his design and a tyre operated at the recommended pressure will not be subject to pinch punctures.
How we ride, speed & effort versus comfort; tyre & bike design will all affect our choices. As virtually all my rides involve roads, canal towpaths and tracks I have Schwalbe Marathon Plus 700c x 32 mm on my touring bike and Dutch Perfect 27 x 1 1/4 inch on my 40 year old road bike as the there is little choice these days in 27 inch tyres. These give a reasonable compromise between speed on road and suitable off-road capability on sometimes rough surfaces and are operated within the manufacturer's stated pressure ratings.0 -
carlton nick wrote:A thinner tyre will have a smaller contact area than a wider one of the same pressure and I cannot accept the view they would have the same contact area otherwise why have such thin tyres? Equally a higher pressure will give a smaller contact area and therefore lower rolling resistance ..... who would choose to ride an MTB with 2 inch wide tyres on tarmac?
FACTS
At the same pressure, wider tyre
1) will have roughly the same contact area, just a different shape of the patch (wider and shorter)
2) will have lower rolling resistance
That's if you test tthe tyres in a lab on a glass floor. In real world, the advantages of wider tyres are even more obvious as they cope more efficently with imperfections of the road, partially also due the larger outside diameter.
MTB tyres have higher rolling resistance beacuse of the tread and in some cases (sticky) compound, not because of the width.
IMO many high end XC tyres e.g. Furious Fred, Racing Ralph could be at least as fast (at low to moderate speeds) as "proper" racing tyres if you shaved off all the knobs and pumped them up to optimal pressure.
I did a 70m charity ride once on my 5" FS mountain bike with huge Racing Ralphs 2.4" with trimmed centre knobs, tubeless, at 45 PSI and all I can say is that I was able to coast at least at the same speed as the guys on road bikes. I was definitely faster than I should be:)0 -
On this basis then are you telling me, Barteos, that if I have my car tyres and bike tyres at the same pressure they will have the same contact area and the car tyres will have less rolling resistance? If the wider tyre has the lower rolling resistance why then do road bikes have 23mm tyres and not wider ones?
On my old road bike or new touring bike I get overtaken from time to time by ultra lightweights but never MTBs!0 -
carlton nick wrote:On this basis then are you telling me, Barteos, that if I have my car tyres and bike tyres at the same pressure they will have the same contact area and the car tyres will have less rolling resistance? If the wider tyre has the lower rolling resistance why then do road bikes have 23mm tyres and not wider ones?
the car tyre comparison is not valid, because the cross sections (and component materials) of cycle tyres and car tyres are totally different.
Most road cycle tyres tend to be between 23-28mm in width, depending on application. The narrower widths have a lighter weight and a slightly lower profile, which usually means better acceleration for a given input - correspondingly, a wider tyre will probably offer better cushioning due to the larger air pocket - which may also translate into better rolling resistance for the same reason.0 -
carlton nick wrote:On this basis then are you telling me, Barteos, that if I have my car tyres and bike tyres at the same pressure they will have the same contact area and the car tyres will have less rolling resistance? If the wider tyre has the lower rolling resistance why then do road bikes have 23mm tyres and not wider ones?
On my old road bike or new touring bike I get overtaken from time to time by ultra lightweights but never MTBs!
I was reffering to identical round profile bicycle (or motorbike?) tyres. I can't comment on cars as different rules may apply to flat profile tyres.
So to use an example, 28mm Gatorskins at 100PSI will have the same contact area and lower rolling resistance as 23mm version at 100PSI.
Have a look at the rolling resistance chart on the right.
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech/?id ... conti_tech (the middle one)
Obviously you would typicaly run 23mm tyres at 100-120PSI and 28mm at 80 -90PSI but still wider tyres will usually roll better on REAL roads. I'm not claiming that +28mm tyres will be faster for everyone but I strongly believe that considering the quality of UK roads, vast majority of riders would be faster on 25-28mm than than on 23mm.
Why 23mm tyres on road bikes?
Because that's what the pros use and that's what sells.
If you spec a high end bike with 28mm tyres, it will be labeled as a winter trainer or audax tourer. Even 25mm tyres will be called "wide" or "good choice for an entry level cyclist" or "suprisingly fast for a big tyre" by biased magazine reviewers.0 -
Interesting comments: I've certainly read plenty of bike reviews saying things along the lines of " but what the bike really needs is thinner tyres than the 28mm on the review sample".0
-
carlton nick wrote:Interesting comments: I've certainly read plenty of bike reviews saying things along the lines of " but what the bike really needs is thinner tyres than the 28mm on the review sample".
don't confuse 'rolling resistance' with 'rotating weight' - they're not the same thing....0
