GT routes: love and hate.

rick_chasey

What do you guys wish the GTs had more, or less of?


What requirements in the GT route would you demand if you were desigining the 2011 Tour?

What GT features do you love and hate?

I have my ideas, that are probably ranted elsewhere.

afx237vi

Mountains

The only thing I really dislike is when the final climb is too far from the finish, like in Pau this year. I know this happens because of economic reason, and probably serves some sort of purpose in tiring the riders out in preparation for subsequent mountain stages, but they're always boring to watch.

Also, I'm not really keen on those stages that are flat for the entire day then finish on a 1st cat or HC climb. You usually just end up with a train from the strongest team and nothing happening until the final 1 or 2 kilometres.

Tricky finishes

More please. A stage doesn't have to finish on a big huge mountain to cause time gaps. The stage into Mende this year was brilliant. And the Spa stage had the potential to be exciting before Fabian started bossing everyone around.

The Giro has lots of these stages. Even if it's a 500 metre drag to the line, it's more exciting than a 3 kilometre straight finish.

Time trials

How about we just ban them altogether?

Rubbish roads

Probably impractical to have an "off-road" stage every year, but who can deny that the pavé and strade bianchi stages of the Tour and Giro weren't two of the most exciting days racing for years? A Tour de France foray into Italy for a stage on the strade bianchi would be epic. Even better, up the Plan de Corones!

Stuey01

GC competition is pretty much just best climber competition. I'd like to see more non-mountain selective stages, give some of the more all round riders a chance to mix it up:

Cobbles
ITT
TTT

That and I love sprints.

takethehighroad

The Colle delle Finestre is not too far from the border to make it possible to have a stage finish in Briancon

andyp

I'd love to see three or four mountain stages back to back, without any rest days in the middle to neutralise them. That always sorts the men out from the boys and would give climbers a genuine chance of the overall win.

FJS

More:
- Cobbles
- one or two 250 (+) km stages
- really steep climbs (harder to find in France than Italy/Spain)
- hilly finishes/uphill sprints, like all those hilltop finishes in the Tirreno
- stages with pretty much guaranteed cross-winds
- mountain TT

Fewer:
- flat stages with increasingly predictable break-away-followed-by-sprint scenarios; more hilly stages
- stages with the last big climb presented as 'mountain stage' - they're not bad as such to give break-aways more of a change, but don't present them as big mountain stages. The Vuelta has loads of them, but doesn't act like they're going to be decisive days in the mountains.
- riders per team; 8 should do.

luckao

afx237vi wrote:

A Tour de France foray into Italy for a stage on the strade bianchi would be epic. Even better, up the Plan de Corones!

Would that ever actually be possible? If ASO wanted to do so, would RCS take exception to them wanting to use some of the routes typically confined to the Giro? As good as it would be to see certain routes visited more, I wouldn't want one GT raising its profile by taking advantage of another's famous stages, not unless it was mutual.

doddy178

Do:-
Cobbles/Strade Bianche style roads
About 4-5 summit finishes per race
TT's should be shorter rather than longer, the TDF one this year was great, until the 2nd time check.
Circuits with a small cat 3 climb or something in. Giro and Vuelta do circuits with good results, the tour seems to hate them
Time bonuses - would have made a difference on the Tourmalet

Don't:-
High mountains, then 60km to the summit, it basically neutralises the stage
Feel the need to have an easy 1st week, see this years Vuelta
Feel bogged down by logistics, Prudhomme himself said in L'Equipe it's becomming less of an issue as they can put the village elsewhere now making stages like the summit finish on Tourmalet possible.
TT's on the last day, sorry Giro but i really don't like it.

donrhummy

Like:

ITT
Summit finishes
Brutal Mountain Stages
ITT on the final day
Mountain TT

Dislike:

Stages with a lot of flat after a tough mountain
Ultra long, flat stages
Cobbles (LOVE them in one-day races, hate them for 3-week races)
Twisty, technical finishes that lead to crashes
TTT

mididoctors

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

The Colle delle Finestre is not too far from the border to make it possible to have a stage finish in Briancon

just ride the pic di midi

up the tourmalet and just keep going instead of coming down the other side

mididoctors

Luckao wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

A Tour de France foray into Italy for a stage on the strade bianchi would be epic. Even better, up the Plan de Corones!

Would that ever actually be possible? If ASO wanted to do so, would RCS take exception to them wanting to use some of the routes typically confined to the Giro? As good as it would be to see certain routes visited more, I wouldn't want one GT raising its profile by taking advantage of another's famous stages, not unless it was mutual.

the cobbles at the tour

the strada at the giro


the end

iainf72

A lot of what I'd say has been covered (long long stages and 3+ days in the mountains with no break)

I know you can't do it anymore, but I'd also like to only allow TTT's as part of a split stage day 100km road race in the morning, 25km TTT in the afternoon.

I think a very long TT *could* be interesting as no one is used to it.

luckao

mididoctors wrote:

the cobbles at the tour

the strada at the giro


the end

Meanwhile, the Vuelta sends riders up yet more mountains.

During the last Tour stage, Kelly and Harmon were discussing a downhill TT. Yes? No? Anything to see more of Nibali's insanity.

mididoctors

geography of france is a limiting factor compared with the giro

nipping off route to stick in some climbs in the Giro is pretty easy to do..if your stuck in France profund not quite so simple

a few yrs ago there was a really interesting stage profile with sizable climbs at the front pan flat in the middle then climbs in the final 30-40 k

produced some odd but interesting racing

mididoctors

Luckao wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

the cobbles at the tour

the strada at the giro


the end

Meanwhile, the Vuelta sends riders up yet more mountains.

During the last Tour stage, Kelly and Harmon were discussing a downhill TT. Yes? No? Anything to see more of Nibali's insanity.

the point i was making is that the races can still retain there own character but both emulate early season racing on poor surfaces

yeah they should introduce new disciplines to mix it up more

dowhill TT's

uphill TTTs! and by uphill I mean short and hard mende style finishes time on the 7th man

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

I think a very long TT *could* be interesting as no one is used to it.

the closest in recent years was the giro 2009 iTT

how long 150k?

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

I know you can't do it anymore, but I'd also like to only allow TTT's as part of a split stage day 100km road race in the morning, 25km TTT in the afternoon.

I was thinking the prologue should be a 2k sprint multiple start houses 30 sec intervals on some drag strip followed by a short TTT less than 20k

iainf72

mididoctors wrote:

how long 150k?

Nah.

Something like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Tour_de_France

Stage 10

donrhummy

I know it'd be crazy but I'd like to see a long TT (say 65 km) with short starting gaps (maybe 1.5 min) so we'd get a bunch of guys passing each other!

Abdoujaparov

How about:

Team sprints (basically a 5k TTT)
Road keirin(ish) (a motorbike leads the peloton, steadily increasing its speed over the course of 50km, dropping riders as it goes. Last man to stay with the motorbike wins)
Bike stunt vert (half pipe competition on TT bikes)

finchy

I'd like to see a whole load of short steep climbs (10 or so) piled up at the end of a stage.

takethehighroad

I like the team sprints idea, what with everyone having a decent train at the moment.

Have a 5k TTT, with the time taken on the first rider over the line and the whole team gets the same time, sort of like the team sprint on the track

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

how long 150k?

Nah.

Something like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Tour_de_France

Stage 10

yeah I forgot how long that tt was

cal_stewart

The TDF should make grown men cry. scared to ride it if you like.

For me the yellow jersey has just replaced the KOM jersey, in that look at this year all damage was done over a few mountian stages.

In for me:

At least 3 Classic type stages. Long Distance + Cobbles and no half effort 12km total.

2 ITT at no less than 50km a piece. No mountian TT

4 Summit finishes in a row. Crazy I know but how good to watch. Make them evil as well I like the look of the pic di midi.

That mad idea about the sprint race and TTT sounds good to me.

so thats 10 days racing.

couple more days in the mountians, a couple of hilly stages and at least 5 sprint stage would do it for me.

Out

Mountain stages like the one that finished in Pau

Cleat Eastwood

mididoctors wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I think a very long TT *could* be interesting as no one is used to it.

the closest in recent years was the giro 2009 iTT

how long 150k?

You sure?

there were 2 iTT;s, 61 and 14 k.

maybe you're thinking of another year

FJS

mididoctors wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

how long 150k?

Nah.

Something like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Tour_de_France

Stage 10

yeah I forgot how long that tt was

Why not go proper old skool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Tour_de_France - stage 20 :twisted: only bikes with bidons at the front allowed. No poncy-neutralize-the-race-winner guaranteed

iainf72

FJS wrote:

Why not go proper old skool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Tour_de_France - stage 20 :twisted: only bikes with bidons at the front allowed. No poncy-neutralize-the-race-winner guaranteed

Oh lord, that's made me go all moist!

Richrd2205

FJS wrote:

Why not go proper old skool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Tour_de_France - stage 20 :twisted: only bikes with bidons at the front allowed. No poncy-neutralize-the-race-winner guaranteed

Now, that would be impressive!!

All the GTs, but the TdF in particular, seem to suffer from the very defensive tactics used. The use, this year, of different road surfaces really shook things up & was fantastic viewing. What I'd like to see (that might help alleviate some of this):
-A short TTT (they're great viewing & help break things up, 15-25km would be fine). Quite happy if this is instead of the prologue (as in the Giro last year).
-A different type ITT, either mountain, insanely long, cobbled or 2 or 3 15+% short climbs therein to make it a little different.
-Some really difficult "hilly" stages, with a sequence of short, sharp, nasty climbs (like Mende). Let's say 5-10 of those in the last 50-100km, with the finish on top of one.
-A ban on mountainous stages without a summit finish.
-A good run of difficult mountainous stages.
-More flat stages where wind is likely to be a significant factor.
-&, obviously, more strade bianchi/pave stages....

That should help!!!!
I have no problem with sprint stages, but I get annoyed that many of the decisive stages are effectively neutralised until the last climb....

knedlicky

afx237vi wrote:

The only thing I really dislike is when the final climb is too far from the finish, like in Pau this year.

I think this’ll be here for a while as Prudhomme has said he likes the idea of those stages. Not sure why he does.

iainf72 wrote:

I think a very long TT *could* be interesting as no one is used to it.

My idea too except I’d also like to see it over a hilly/mountainous route, like the last 100 km of the Spa, Gap or Mende stages, or the last 70 km of the Luchon or Pau stages. As I imagine time gaps could be large, I’d have the maximum time gap between two riders in the stage classification (so like between 7th and 8th or 120th and 121st) to be only 1 min irrespective of what it was in reality (like the system the organisers used for some long TTTs)

mididoctors wrote:

yeah they should introduce new disciplines to mix it up more

What about introducing a chase, like they have in biathlon. In the chase, skiers set off at intervals determined in a previous race, called a sprint and which is basically a time trial. So had there been a chase following last week’s TT, Cancellara would have set off 17 sec ahead of Martin, then 31 secs later Grabsch, and so on. How they then organise themselves on the road would be interesting. Finish would be like any stage.

In fully mountain stages in the Alps and Pyrennees I’d like to see times taken twice, first about 60% along the route, then at the finish, so as if the one day is two stages. Riders wouldn’t stop at the 60% mark though, just carry on, so with a flying start. (I suppose in many ways this is a version of the chase idea I mention above).


Without any innovative changes, I’d like to see more ‘bumpy’ stages, so making more use of the terrain in the Massif Central, Cevennes, Vercors, Jura and Vosges.

mididoctors

knedlicky wrote:

[

In fully mountain stages in the Alps and Pyrennees I’d like to see times taken twice, first about 60% along the route, then at the finish, so as if the one day is two stages. Riders wouldn’t stop at the 60% mark though, just carry on, so with a flying start. (I suppose in many ways this is a version of the chase idea I mention above).

on every stage every meter of the road effectively acts as a pursuit till the end of the stage...thunk about it

if they stop and go to bed its different... if they just keep going its no different than the gap on the road or virtual GC we already have.

Without any innovative changes, I’d like to see more ‘bumpy’ stages, so making more use of the terrain in the Massif Central, Cevennes, Vercors, Jura and Vosges.

yeah I think we all agree there

mididoctors

FJS wrote:

Why not go proper old skool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Tour_de_France - stage 20 :twisted: only bikes with bidons at the front allowed. No poncy-neutralize-the-race-winner guaranteed

why not? maybe not the bidons on the bars though... perhaps limited bike support so people are not switching between tt bikes and climbing bikes the whole stage.