Why does Cav not contest the intermediate sprints?

big lewy

25 points down.....2 sprint stages left....Surely too late for Cav to retain any hope of winning his coveted Maillot Verte?

Following the Tour over the last couple of years, it seems to me that one of the reasons that Hushovd has been so successful, despite a deficit of stage wins in comparison with Cavendish, is that he keeps his points total ticking over with points in the mid-stage sprints, and probably also higher placed finishes in the more lumpy stages.

Surely Cav and HTC now need to go after every point available (as they arguably should have been all along, but especially after Cav's bad start)? Even on today's stage, there is one intermediate sprint before the climbing starts. Can someone explain to me why HTC have not been chasing these points (though I accept that there will be days when breakaways mop them up - surely on mountain days like this there is nothing else available for the sprinters' teams)?

Don't get me wrong, given the choice, I would prefer to see Bradley Wiggins up near the top of the GC with something other than respectability to fight for in the final week, but Cav is still the Brit with the best chance of winning one of the TdF jerseys.

cougie

I'm guessing that the intermediate sprints may take something out of cavs legs and he prefers the stage win rather than anonymous intermediate sprints ?

I guess he ranks wins higher than the jersey ?

Neil McC

cougie wrote:

I'm guessing that the intermediate sprints may take something out of cavs legs and he prefers the stage win rather than anonymous intermediate sprints ?

I guess he ranks wins higher than the jersey ?

Agreed. Whilst he's the fastest in the world why not get those wins under his belt? He'll probably lose a bit of his top end speed in a few years and someone younger and faster may come along. In which case he can develop into a more well rounded rider, with a fast sprint, and then go for consistent high sprint finishes and intermediates.

He's still only 25 remember, lots of time for green jerseys.

RichN95.

Because he's not that type of rider. Hushovd gets points on the early sprints in mountain stages by going in breaks and he can do this because he's Ok at climbing. Cav on the other hand can't waste energy as he needs every little bit to get through the stage.

Also Hushovd has to go chasing points as he will consistently lose lots of points to Cav/Petacchi/Farrar in every bunch sprint.

McEwen was the same as Cav, ignoring the intermediates unless he absolutely had to go for them, and he's got three green jerseys, and he didn't win as many stages. It's a sound strategy when you're the dominant sprinter. Had Cav been in the top three on stage 1, rather than crashing, he would be in green now.

schweiz

Take Stage 11 which cav won.

Points for stage win = 35
2nd = 30
3rd = 26
4th = 24
5th = 22
6th = 20

Points for Intermediate Sprint 6, 4, 2

So if Cav had have gone for (and won) both intermediate sprints he would have gained 12 points. But 1 of two things would have happened. A Cervelo and a Lampre rider would have ridden with Cav to try and steal the points and make him work harder or Hushovd and Petacchi would have gone on the break with Cav thus potentially reducing the advantage Cav can gain from 12 points to 4.

The effort involved in picking up those points may result in him losing the sprint for the stage and losing more points than gained on the intermediates.

Hushovd went for intermediates the stage after Cav was DQd last year but the cynic in me says that he only went for those to try and show that he was the most deserving winner and the fact that Cav lost 35 points (or whatever was available on that day's stage)didn't matter. IMO, the fact was that after the DQ it would have been harder to lose the green! If Cav hadn't have lost the points then I think they would have both worked on outsprinting each other for stage wins.

stagehopper

If he was closer to the top he might in future, but he's been so far off the green jersey this year due to his awful start, combined with the nature of the parcours and the racing (breaks getting away very early which takes a huge amount of effort to get into), that it's not been worth it for him.

In fact I can only remember four Intermediates being taken by the green jersey combatants - Thor in one of the medium mountain stages which Cav couldn't contest anyway as he hasn't got Thor's climbing legs; Thor and one of Petacchi's Lampre team mates both taking a sprint in a breakaway; and Petacchi taking one ahead of Thor and Ciolek. So that's 4 in 14 stages. Even if Cav had been able to challenge for them, let alone had the desire, he'd have gained a maximum of 24 points if Thor/Petacchi had not been there and you can bet would have been marked/chased down/attacked to prevent this.

If he wants the green jersey he needs a good start and a clean Tour. Last year the disqualification on the stage finish in Besancon wrecked his chances. This year he came in with form and confidence through the floor and it showed. His three wins since with clearly burgeoning confidence has clearly shown Cav he hasn't lost it.

His aim from the end of this Tour to the end of the next should be: no dentistry, no drama, no falling off in final corner of first sprint = green jersey.

pedro118118

Personally, I think the gap between the winner and placings should be higher in terms of points to properly reward stage wins. The problem for Cav is that when he wins, Thor usually finishes in the top 5 (or top 10 at worst). When Thor wins (harder stages), Cav is usually nowhere. And then, of course, there are the intermediate sprints.

Depends on your point of view though really. Many people see the Green Jersey as a sprinters competition, where the fastest wins. This isn't necessarily the case as the Green Jersey is worn by the leader/winner of the points competition. Points are awared for consistent stage finsishes (and are awarded on all stages, not just the flat ones, albeit on a sliding scale) and intermediate sprints.

I think Cav does need to change his mindset if he genuinely wants to target the points competition. Or perhaps his focus is stage wins and green is a bonus?

I wonder what will happen to the stash of unused green HTC Columbia team kit from this year's race?! No doubt be a green Scott bike, green helmets, shoes etc knocking around the team bus/HQ somewhere too??!!!

RichN95.

pedro118118 wrote:

I wonder what will happen to the stash of unused green HTC Columbia team kit from this year's race?! No doubt be a green Scott bike, green helmets, shoes etc knocking around the team bus/HQ somewhere too??!!!

All that sort of sort of stuff gets made up overnight and delivered.

Garry H

RichN95 wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

I wonder what will happen to the stash of unused green HTC Columbia team kit from this year's race?! No doubt be a green Scott bike, green helmets, shoes etc knocking around the team bus/HQ somewhere too??!!!

All that sort of sort of stuff gets made up overnight and delivered.

The clothing is provided by the tour I believe

pedro118118

Garry H wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

I wonder what will happen to the stash of unused green HTC Columbia team kit from this year's race?! No doubt be a green Scott bike, green helmets, shoes etc knocking around the team bus/HQ somewhere too??!!!

All that sort of sort of stuff gets made up overnight and delivered.

The clothing is provided by the tour I believe

Jerseys are provided by the Tour.

All the other (unnecessary) additions/adornments are provided in accordance with rider/team/sponsor vanity. You're not telling my that the Tour provides polka dot bikes, green shoes and yellow helmets and the like?!

takethehighroad

If he wins the stages into Bordeaux and Paris that's at least ten points clawed back. Then there are two intermediate sprints on the Champs Elysees, that I feel he might just go for if he's in with a chance of winning Green

stagehopper

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

If he wins the stages into Bordeaux and Paris that's at least ten points clawed back. Then there are two intermediate sprints on the Champs Elysees, that I feel he might just go for if he's in with a chance of winning Green

They're always mopped up by a breakaway. And again he'd be marked/chased so would get maximum of 4 points back with Petacchi second each time. Still leaves him well short.

His only hope is he wins Bordeaux and the other two have a nightmare in the sprint.

pedro118118

I can't see it.
Sadly, I think his crash on St 1 and Thor's strongman win in St 3 put paid to Cav's challenge. Which given Thor was denied the chance to sprint and earn points in St 2 by the ridiculous 'protest' (when Cav had long-since been dropped), probably means Thor is a deserving winner.
Seems consistancy is more important than outright speed in the points competition these days...

rick_chasey

Cav should be going for these points.

He messed up his first sprint, and his second, so why not try and make up for it?

It's only a lost cause for him because he never contests them. I refuse to belive it takes that much out of your final sprint.

pedro118118

The route has conspired against Cav to a certain extent - a bit like Wiggo. Not enough straightforward flat stages for him to dominate and too many hard stages, which Thor can do something on and capitalise.

At some stage, he (Cav) surely has to start contesting the intermediate sprints, as I cannot see the organisers putting together a flat/boring parcours which suits him any time soon.

knedlicky

pedro118118 wrote:

Garry H wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

I wonder what will happen to the stash of unused green HTC Columbia team kit from this year's race?! No doubt be a green Scott bike, green helmets, shoes etc knocking around the team bus/HQ somewhere too??!!!

All that sort of sort of stuff gets made up overnight and delivered.

The clothing is provided by the tour I believe

Jerseys are provided by the Tour.

All the other (unnecessary) additions/adornments are provided in accordance with rider/team/sponsor vanity. You're not telling my that the Tour provides polka dot bikes, green shoes and yellow helmets and the like?!

For a new leader in one of the jerseys, the Tour provides by the next morning both a short- and a long-arm jersey, and a rainjacket, in the right colours and size.
The teams themselves have to provide not just appropriately-coloured bikes, shoes and helmets, but also any wanted matching shorts and gloves.

Pross

pedro118118 wrote:

The route has conspired against Cav to a certain extent - a bit like Wiggo. Not enough straightforward flat stages for him to dominate and too many hard stages, which Thor can do something on and capitalise.

At some stage, he (Cav) surely has to start contesting the intermediate sprints, as I cannot see the organisers putting together a flat/boring parcours which suits him any time soon.

I'd disagree with that. Other than the pave stage Thor has been way off the sprinting pace. He's only in contention down to that one stage and Cav's crash on the first stage. Picking up enough points from bonus sprints wouldn't have been enough had it not been for Cav missing out completely on the first stage (and if he'd kept going for a placing on stage 4) as we see from the way Petacchi is now in the lead. I still think Thor has sacrificed his sprinting ability to chase these bonus sprints on hilly days and it could yet cost him the green jersey as last year he was at least competing with Cav in the bunch sprints whereas he's now just about making the top 10. They should either make the intermediate sprint points worth more to reward breaks or encourage sprinters to compete for them or do away with them altogether.

Pokerface

You can bet that HTC have a green Scott frame somewhere hidden away ready to roll out if needed. And I'd bet anything that Trek had a Yellow Madone ready just in case a certain Radio Shack rider needed it.


Specialized had their Yellow frames prepared well in advance -as they knew virtually for certain that they would be needed. Cervelo had a Green-accented S3 all ready to go for Thor, etc.


As others have said - the Tour provides jerseys and skinsuits as needed. The team provides everything from shorts to helmets, etc

Pokerface

Oh yeah - if Cav was leading the points competition, the plan WAS to go for intermediate sprints. But barring some miracle, he too far out of it to realistically have a chance to win it, so he's saving his energy for the stage wins instead.

If Petacchi and/or Thor failed to score points in Bordeaux, then the plan might be back on for the final stage

afx237vi

pedro118118 wrote:

The route has conspired against Cav to a certain extent - a bit like Wiggo. Not enough straightforward flat stages for him to dominate and too many hard stages, which Thor can do something on and capitalise.

At some stage, he (Cav) surely has to start contesting the intermediate sprints, as I cannot see the organisers putting together a flat/boring parcours which suits him any time soon.

Cav is not in the green jersey because he crashed on stage 1 and sat up and rolled home in 12th on stage 2. It has little to do with the route or the organisers conspiring against him.

I think Thor's efforts in the mountains are a little over-rated to be honest. This year he's gone in the breakaway twice and picked up, what, 10 points? Not worth it - especially for a rider like Cav.

deejay

Pross wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

The route has conspired against Cav to a certain extent - a bit like Wiggo. Not enough straightforward flat stages for him to dominate and too many hard stages, which Thor can do something on and capitalise.

At some stage, he (Cav) surely has to start contesting the intermediate sprints, as I cannot see the organisers putting together a flat/boring parcours which suits him any time soon.

I'd disagree with that. Other than the pave stage Thor has been way off the sprinting pace. He's only in contention down to that one stage and Cav's crash on the first stage. Picking up enough points from bonus sprints wouldn't have been enough had it not been for Cav missing out completely on the first stage (and if he'd kept going for a placing on stage 4) as we see from the way Petacchi is now in the lead. I still think Thor has sacrificed his sprinting ability to chase these bonus sprints on hilly days and it could yet cost him the green jersey as last year he was at least competing with Cav in the bunch sprints whereas he's now just about making the top 10. They should either make the intermediate sprint points worth more to reward breaks or encourage sprinters to compete for them or do away with them altogether.

Thor being the better bike handler and a better alrounder and in that change over period (like Museeuw or Jalabert) from Sprinter to Rouler.
There is no TTT this year and a French GT is about covering all aspects of France.
France has everything possible for bike racing and riders should accomodate and master everything there, if they want to win something.
Just sprinting. Then stay on the Track.

inseine

Just sprinting. Then stay on the Track.

Like road and track sprinting are even vaguely related. Nonsense.

Pross

I didn't say it's a bad thing did I? The thing is, unlike Jalabert he doesn't attack to win stages at the moment, he is attacking purely to pick up a few points for the green jersey generally (stage 3 excepted) and the point I was making is he is probably losing more points by no longer being able to really contest the bunch sprints than he is picking up from the intermediate sprints. I'd rather see a good all round rider win green than it being purely a sprinters competition and said this recently on a thread that had people insisting on calling the points competition the 'sprints' competition. I'd also like to see a route that gives a chance to those other than the strongest climbers as the yellow jersey is really a competition for climbers who can time trial a bit

Pross

afx237vi wrote:

pedro118118 wrote:

The route has conspired against Cav to a certain extent - a bit like Wiggo. Not enough straightforward flat stages for him to dominate and too many hard stages, which Thor can do something on and capitalise.

At some stage, he (Cav) surely has to start contesting the intermediate sprints, as I cannot see the organisers putting together a flat/boring parcours which suits him any time soon.

Cav is not in the green jersey because he crashed on stage 1 and sat up and rolled home in 12th on stage 2. It has little to do with the route or the organisers conspiring against him.

I think Thor's efforts in the mountains are a little over-rated to be honest. This year he's gone in the breakaway twice and picked up, what, 10 points? Not worth it - especially for a rider like Cav.

+1 (assuming you meant he sat up on Stage 4 ). The little breaks are a bit gimmicky, I'd like to have seen him try to stick it out on one of the transition stages.

afx237vi

Stage 4, sorry, yes. Seems like a looooooooooong time ago already.

dennisn

cougie wrote:

I guess he ranks wins higher than the jersey ?

+1