Armstrong Innocent

dg74
dg74 Posts: 656
edited July 2010 in Pro race
What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

Who's next on the radar? Contador? Schleck?
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Comments

  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    dg74 wrote:
    What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

    Who's next on the radar? Contador? Schleck?

    How could Lance (or anyone else) ever be proved innocent?

    Serious question: you can't prove a (doping) negative.

    He might be innocent of federal fraud if that's what you mean but I'm not sure you do?

    There seems to be a presumption that Lance gets especially bad treatment which is only true of a couple of posters: certainly the vitriol poured on Ricco & Vino here was fairly strong.

    And yep, Bertie should *probably* have served a couple of years in a fair world.

    [Calling Kleber]
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • Percy Vera
    Percy Vera Posts: 1,103
    dg74 wrote:
    What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

    Who's next on the radar? Contador? Schleck?


    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
  • eh
    eh Posts: 4,854
    What you mean the Contrador and Schleck that have already been implicated in their own doping stories?
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    I was looking back at my collection of cycling mags whilst on the turbo over the weekend. I'd say 80-90% of the coverstars had since been busted for doping.

    I know where my money is - but I'm not a hater. He's still a great cyclist.

    I'm not sure how you can have blind faith in a professional sportsman when so many of his team mates/ compatriots have been busted.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    I'm a former Lance lover and am not a current hater.

    He may 'get off' from any formal charges, etc, but there's no way he's innocent of doping.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    dg74 wrote:
    What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

    Eat my hat
  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    I was wondering the same.

    What will happen when Lance retires who can the skeptics on here turn their attentions to?

    My money is on Wiggo.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I think there is exactly 1 person on here who's got an obsession with Armstrong and no one else.

    The rest of the "skeptics" tend to already have opinions on many riders.

    But some people don't want to see those posts, they just want to see the Lance related ones.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    dg74 wrote:
    What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

    Who's next on the radar? Contador? Schleck?

    If there is dirt, let it be dug. Er... or something along those lines.
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    eh wrote:
    What you mean the Contrador and Schleck that have already been implicated in their own doping stories?

    Contador is still believed by some people to be the "mysterious" AC from Operation Puerto. But his DNA was never compared to the bags of blood.

    And Andy himself doesn't have any direct connection but his brother was found to have made payments to a doctor convicted of helping dopers.
  • antikythera
    antikythera Posts: 326
    dg74 wrote:
    Sig = I'm hurting.

    That's call brain ache, sunshine... Let it go and get a life. Why troll for this kind of sh*t?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    dg74 wrote:
    What if - what if this comes to fruition and after all the mud slinging / rumours / investigaton, etc etc - what are all you LA haters going to do?

    Who's next on the radar? Contador? Schleck?

    OJ Simpson was found not guilty. A lot of people still think he did it though.

    The same situation would happen with LA.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rapid_uphill
    rapid_uphill Posts: 841
    Is anybody in pro cycling Innocent?
  • CTL
    CTL Posts: 10
    edited July 2010
    Personally, I find it deeply reprehensible that some countries appear to be real slackerds to controlling and enforcement of anti-doping laws hence making it so it is not really a level field.
  • stonehouse
    stonehouse Posts: 222
    There are a few posters on here that even if God himself turned up and said that Lance was innocent they would still have their doubts, that's the nature of *some* people.

    I find it sad that as soon as someone shows some brilliance they are automatically considered to be cheating, I also find it equally sad when it turns out to be true.

    But there again I also find it amazing that someone would risk their life with drug taking to enhance their performance, such must be the pressure to be sucessful. It might say something that several cycling stars have taken their lives once they are no longer able to perform. I personally wouldn't feel much achievement if I had won anything by cheating, what's the point, other than fame and money, err ok, there is the motive then...

    Perhaps with retrospective testing more dopers will come out of the woodwork, but what will that achieve for the sport, just tarnish it even further. It's all FUBAR IMHO.
    www.ciclobyron.com
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    stonehouse wrote:
    There are a few posters on here that even if God himself turned up and said that Lance was innocent they would still have their doubts, that's the nature of *some* people.

    And the reverse is true too, I think if Armstrong himself confessed some people would not believe it.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • stonehouse
    stonehouse Posts: 222
    And the reverse is true too, I think if Armstrong himself confessed some people would not believe it.

    I suspect you wouldn't be one of those people ....
    www.ciclobyron.com
  • symo
    symo Posts: 1,743
    edited July 2010
    Now having read Bad Blood, and was familiar with his treatment of Simeoni and Andreu before that. Having read what he effectively did to ruin those careers, I will personally keep laughing every time he falls of his bike. Also what he did to LeMond via Trek is also disgusting, if he has nothing to hide he should be pro aggressive testing and all for retrospective testing.

    Don't mess with Texas, yeah right.
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    we are the proud, the few, Descendents.

    Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    stonehouse wrote:
    There are a few posters on here that even if God himself turned up and said that Lance was innocent they would still have their doubts, that's the nature of *some* people.



    But there again I also find it amazing that someone would risk their life with drug taking to enhance their performance, such must be the pressure to be sucessful.

    Careful how you talk about God. It could be God "herself". :wink::wink:

    I don't find it amazing at all that ".....someone would risk their life.......". These are young people who are very good at rationalizing that it's the way to go. They are also convinced that they are doing it the right way and no harm will ever come to them from this. They are also invulnerable until at least the age of 25 to 30. H*ll, a 16 year old kid will tell you that you don't know sh*t. Ahhh, to be young again and know it all instead of old and stupid.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.

    I don't know. I think there are a few people who want at least a couple of pounds.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.

    Lance doesn't get sh1t cos he won 7 Tours. He gets sh1t cos he's Lance.
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • off the back
    off the back Posts: 168
    First off this term "Lance hater" - I resent the way everyone must be hater if they do not believe the Lance story. I don't think he rode clean, I don't hate him I just don't like him. Hate would indicate an almost irrational, emotional negativity. And using hater you make it sound like there is nothing out there that hints he may have doped. (Not about to get into what evidence there is right now too many threads on that previous).

    Having said that if enough evidence came forward to show that the guy rode clean all his career and beat all the best of his day (many who have been shown to dope) then I would be his no.1 fan!!!! No question and i would apologise to guy for doubting him.

    Unfortunatly the last 15yrs have shown that it pays to be sceptical and 9/10 times where there is smoke there has been fire. Based on what is out there I reserve the right to not believe.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    calvjones wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.

    Lance doesn't get sh1t cos he won 7 Tours. He gets sh1t cos he's Lance.


    I don't know but I'm on the side of him getting sh*t because he won 7 tours. I think this is key to most peoples "dislike" of him. Everyone likes a winner, unless they win too much.
    Then it becomes "obvious" that cheating was involved or possibly the fact that people are tired of hearing the name. Who wasn't tired of hearing Michael Phelps name by the end of the Olympics? I've heard some, on this forum, talk about certain successful English football teams and how they always win, with a little drug use thrown in, of course. I'm a little tired of hearing LA's name and seeing his picture, and even a full size likeness at one of the local grocery stores.
    TBH I think a lot of people who push the "dislike button" are the ones who follow cycling.
    the most. I don't see the general population of the world concerned with him at all, other than him being the big TDF champ and cancer fighter. They could care less if he doped.
    He's a hero to many, many, many more people than the few on this forum who rant against him.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.
    Armstrong is not resented for his 'wins' as such. Rather he is resented for the way he has bullied riders out of the sport; has threatened to 'destroy' people who spoke out against doping; has blacklisted journalists and manipulated the media; has showed disrespect to other riders, including Tour winners; has conspired in corruption with the UCI; has cynically used his ‘cancer campaign’ to protect himself from criticism and so on. Oh, and because he has always managed to avoid being held to account for his doping whilst plenty of 'lesser' riders (that is those who are less important to the plans of the likes of Verbruggen and McQuaid) have been 'made examples of'.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    dennisn wrote:
    I don't see the general population of the world concerned with him at all, other than him being the big TDF champ and cancer fighter. They could care less if he doped.
    He's a hero to many, many, many more people than the few on this forum who rant against him.

    If they aren't concerned with him, how would he be their hero?
    Of those who are concerned with him, there are a lot more detractors than the few on this forum. Not even close to a 50-50 split, in fact.

    Anyhow, I agree with Dave. Lance is done. Time to take him out of the forum oven and move on. (or at least until the feds have something concrete)
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    BikingBernie wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.
    Armstrong is not resented for his 'wins' as such. Rather he is resented for the way he has bullied riders out of the sport; has threatened to 'destroy' people who spoke out against doping; has blacklisted journalists and manipulated the media; has showed disrespect to other riders, including Tour winners; has conspired in corruption with the UCI; has cynically used his ‘cancer campaign’ to protect himself from criticism and so on. Oh, and because he has always managed to avoid being held to account for his doping whilst plenty of 'lesser' riders (that is those who are less important to the plans of the likes of Verbruggen and McQuaid) have been 'made examples of'.

    Suppose he was / is all those things you attribute to him, would you still be "on his case" if he had never won the tour? Somehow I doubt it, as you've not really "gone after" anyone like him who hasn't won the TDF. So, I'm saying that the 7 wins IS a major factor in your's, and others, opinions.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    BikingBernie wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    hopefully now LA is on the decline and retirement just weeks away people will feel they've had their lb of flesh and move on to newer targets e.g. Contador will be resented if he makes it five grand tours in a row so he will get it.
    Armstrong is not resented for his 'wins' as such. Rather he is resented for the way he has bullied riders out of the sport; has threatened to 'destroy' people who spoke out against doping; has blacklisted journalists and manipulated the media; has showed disrespect to other riders, including Tour winners; has conspired in corruption with the UCI; has cynically used his ‘cancer campaign’ to protect himself from criticism and so on. Oh, and because he has always managed to avoid being held to account for his doping whilst plenty of 'lesser' riders (that is those who are less important to the plans of the likes of Verbruggen and McQuaid) have been 'made examples of'.

    you don't win 7 TDFs in a row without making enemies bb! This is the biggest race in the world.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    dennisn wrote:
    Suppose he was / is all those things you attribute to him, would you still be "on his case" if he had never won the tour? Somehow I doubt it, as you've not really "gone after" anyone like him who hasn't won the TDF. So, I'm saying that the 7 wins IS a major factor in your's, and others, opinions.
    Of course his 7 'wins' are a factor, just as no one likes to see undeserving, corrupt and generally unpleasant individuals reap fantastic rewarded in business and politics whilst the more deserving get nothing.

    However, the sort of things I have mentioned are key to the supposed 'dislike' of Armstrong. I have no doubt that if he had won seven Tours whilst being as 'uncontroversial' as, say, Indurain, no one would feel the need to 'go after him', as you put it. Think on, plenty of other riders have been very successful without attracting the criticism that Armstrong does, which indicates that it is something other than him being successful that is at the heart of the 'problem'.
  • CTL
    CTL Posts: 10
    Armstrong is not resented for his 'wins' as such. Rather he is resented for the way he has bullied riders out of the sport; has threatened to 'destroy' people who spoke out against doping; has blacklisted journalists and manipulated the media; has showed disrespect to other riders, including Tour winners; has conspired in corruption with the UCI; has cynically used his ‘cancer campaign’ to protect himself from criticism and so on. Oh, and because he has always managed to avoid being held to account for his doping whilst plenty of 'lesser' riders (that is those who are less important to the plans of the likes of Verbruggen and McQuaid) have been 'made examples of'.

    This looks like a familiar debate so I might as well reiterate what others have written too is for lack of better words, G. Lemond respected the culture, the ways of the Tour, had an amiable relationship basically with the press whereas Armstrong seems to grate people the wrong way. I think that concept merits consideration too.

    Last year, though I'm not a dyed-in-wool Lance fan, I felt inclined to support and respect what he was doing. This tour though seems to have diverged from that climate.

    There really is something as in the "The Damned United" movie about being a good and worthy champion as opposed to just being a champion, I forget exactly how the movie put it but it's correct. We see that happen all the time, for example, talking about the World Cup, it's being written up and it is a different topic altogether but whether Spain is a "worthy champion."

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