Carbon frameset advice - £2,500 to £3,250

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Comments

  • stuaff
    stuaff Posts: 1,736
    Pretre wrote:
    I spoke to the owner of Le Beau Velo at the Earls Court Bike Show last year & I am very tempted - only issue is that pretty much the only thing that got damaged in the crash was the frame so I have a groupset & finishing kit at the LBS. The man from Le Beau Velo was VERY reluctant to talk about me buying a frame without the components he was selling....

    At the same time, he'd rather make a sale on the frame than not make a sale at all. Unless he'd like you to go elsewhere! I'm sure Velocity would be more accomodating if he doesn't budge.
    Dahon Speed Pro TT; Trek Portland
    Viner Magnifica '08 ; Condor Squadra
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  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    True - I've got lots of time to think about this as by the time I'm physically capable of getting out on a road bike again it'll be Autumn/Winter so I won't want to take a brand new bike out..
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Pretre wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    The new Colnago C59 looks rather splendid!

    Good thought - the BBox one's in the TdF look rather nice & the inside cover advert of ProCycling this month has a very nice black & white one. Any idea how much they are?

    Highly likely to be around the 3000 mark at a guess...
    £3,600 I read at the weekend ....... anyone test ride one at the BR Live at the weekend?
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    This is goygeous. If you don't mind getting free bars, stem, post etc and it being at the low end of your range.

    http://www.chickencycles.co.uk/index.ph ... ub=1&ord=2
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    PS if anyone was reluctant to take £3k off me for 'only' a frame, I'd not bother twisting their arm.
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    Seriously look into Parlee and Serotta. The workmanship on both (and I've seen lots) is always top notch and you know you'll be riding something that's aligned and true. Sadly many magazines don't test whether the dropouts are parallel with each other or the centerline plane of the frame which contributes to stability and safety above ~50 km/h and certainly through hairpins. If you've not done many alpine or dolomite descents, get ready for the subtleties of balance and body positioning and braking thru a curve, it's fantastic when it all comes together, which for me is rarely.

    There's so much choice, I'd always check out - Colnago EPS, Pino, Parlee, Cervelo S3 or R3SL, Serotta (HSG not the lightest), Look, Time, DeRosa King, Cannondale SuperSix HM(if you need a really stiff frame), Orbea Orca (mark III now?), Bianchi 928 SL (like the idea of them but the colours and the geo isn't to my personal liking).

    Wheel-wise hope you get some light hops like HED Ardennes for the climbing.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    This thread does raise some interesting questions about what you actually get when you pay more for a carbon frame (with no disrespect to the OP's desire to buy into a premium marque).

    I'm sure that many top end frames are a lot better than many cheaper ones, and some brands (Colnago, Cervelo, Pinarello etc) seem to have well deserved reputations. But does price really reflect quality very well? I wonder if many £1,500 frames might not better than some £3000 frames. The problem is that what makes one frame better than another is fairly subtle, so if you pay 3K for a frame you are not necessarily going to know when you ride it that you are getting your money's worth, unless you have ridden a lot of frames before and know enough about your own setup requirements and the effects of wheels etc to be able to tell what aspects of the ride are down to the frame. This means that there is little to stop manufacturers pricing frames at whatever they think is going to be most profitable, so one frame with a prestigious logo may sell well at 3K while another equally good one with a less desirable name might be better marketed at 1.5K. And pros seem able to win on Canyon, Dedacciai and Focus frames as well as on Colnagos, Pinarellos and Cervelos.
  • Chip \'oyler
    Chip \'oyler Posts: 2,323
    neeb wrote:
    This thread does raise some interesting questions about what you actually get when you pay more for a carbon frame (with no disrespect to the OP's desire to buy into a premium marque).

    I'm sure that many top end frames are a lot better than many cheaper ones, and some brands (Colnago, Cervelo, Pinarello etc) seem to have well deserved reputations. But does price really reflect quality very well? I wonder if many £1,500 frames might not better than some £3000 frames. The problem is that what makes one frame better than another is fairly subtle, so if you pay 3K for a frame you are not necessarily going to know when you ride it that you are getting your money's worth, unless you have ridden a lot of frames before and know enough about your own setup requirements and the effects of wheels etc to be able to tell what aspects of the ride are down to the frame. This means that there is little to stop manufacturers pricing frames at whatever they think is going to be most profitable, so one frame with a prestigious logo may sell well at 3K while another equally good one with a less desirable name might be better marketed at 1.5K. And pros seem able to win on Canyon, Dedacciai and Focus frames as well as on Colnagos, Pinarellos and Cervelos.

    Well the +£3k for the Maxima frame is because it's hand made, to the riders requirements. The main tubes are also bespoke. So there's a lot of man hours to consider. Plus Viner don't spend vast amounts on Marketing, so that amount isn't absorbed into their frame costs.
    Expertly coached by http://www.vitessecyclecoaching.co.uk/

    http://vineristi.wordpress.com - the blog for Viner owners and lovers!
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    Well the +£3k for the Maxima frame is because it's hand made, to the riders requirements. The main tubes are also bespoke. So there's a lot of man hours to consider. Plus Viner don't spend vast amounts on Marketing, so that amount isn't absorbed into their frame costs.
    Yup, you must be getting what you pay for there, but customised carbon frames are very much the exception. When you buy a Pinarello or Cervelo you're still just getting a standard unit out of the mould, same as with a cheaper frame. That doesn't necessarily mean that more research and quality tweaking hasn't gone into it, but it might not have done..
  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    neeb wrote:
    This thread does raise some interesting questions about what you actually get when you pay more for a carbon frame (with no disrespect to the OP's desire to buy into a premium marque).

    I'm sure that many top end frames are a lot better than many cheaper ones, and some brands (Colnago, Cervelo, Pinarello etc) seem to have well deserved reputations. But does price really reflect quality very well? I wonder if many £1,500 frames might not better than some £3000 frames. The problem is that what makes one frame better than another is fairly subtle, so if you pay 3K for a frame you are not necessarily going to know when you ride it that you are getting your money's worth, unless you have ridden a lot of frames before and know enough about your own setup requirements and the effects of wheels etc to be able to tell what aspects of the ride are down to the frame. This means that there is little to stop manufacturers pricing frames at whatever they think is going to be most profitable, so one frame with a prestigious logo may sell well at 3K while another equally good one with a less desirable name might be better marketed at 1.5K. And pros seem able to win on Canyon, Dedacciai and Focus frames as well as on Colnagos, Pinarellos and Cervelos.

    You're absolutely correct of course but if I'm going to spend this amount of cash on a frame then I want something that I feel is desirable - it's personal choice & I've worked damed hard for many years not even being able to afford a weekend in Bognor so now that I've reached a stage in my life where I can afford some of the better things I WANT ( not NEED) a top-end bike :D
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    Custom made frames don't have to be stratospherically expensive:

    http://www.wyndymilla.com/big-geranium.html

    * in no way do I condone the colours/graphics depicted in the above link
  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    Custom made frames don't have to be stratospherically expensive:

    http://www.wyndymilla.com/big-geranium.html

    * in no way do I condone the colours/graphics depicted in the above link

    That is just hideous! :shock: Did they hold a competition & only children under 5 could enter?
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    OTOH that Windymilla is really cool, I'd never ride it but a very fit tanned rider like in the photo would make even a Decathlon that AG2R used to ride look cool. Moreau *almost* pulled it off.

    Stop trying to equate money to value, forget it. Mercedes owned Chrysler and shared a lot of parts - you can see where I'm going.

    The Priest wants to buy a bike that makes his cock hard when he sees it so he can ride the snot outta it when he's on it. At £3000, a frame is not a tool but a symbiosis of body and machine. Tell Dario Pergoretti that his bikes are just inanimate tools and have no more value than a Boardman and he's probably like to deck you one, but having me him he'd probably smile and walk away.

    No one gets into high end bikes to *save* money. That's a totally different sport.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    The interesting thing (just to be a devil's advocate and possibly appear to contradict what I've already said) is that you DO actually get value when you buy a label and a marketing image. It's intangible value, and it may not appeal to everyone, but it's real. It's a virtual quantity created in the mediasphere by marketing (with real money) and when you buy it you partially acquire it. When you are riding a Pinarello and (some) people go "wow", its ability to have that effect is a genuine property of the product, created by marketing and paid for by you. It's traditional to portray the consumer as the victim of marketing, but as often as not he/she is fully aware of what he is paying for and isn't being deceived at all. There needn't be (probably usually aren't) any victims, there can be a fair and deliberate purchase of a copyrighted image, itself often something highly complex and involving much creative effort to assemble and sustain. When kids buy the latest brand name trainers (or whatever it is they buy these days) are they being ripped off? Of course not, they are gaining the aura of a carefully created multimedia phenomenon and quite possibly a genuinely better chance of scoring with the opposite sex. Arguably it's the parents who are the victims if, through media illiteracy, they are incapable of seeing this intangible value and so believe that they are getting better value if they buy something functionally the same for only slightly less money that completely lacks the power of the brand image.
  • Chip \'oyler
    Chip \'oyler Posts: 2,323
    neeb wrote:
    The interesting thing (just to be a devil's advocate and possibly appear to contradict what I've already said) is that you DO actually get value when you buy a label and a marketing image. It's intangible value, and it may not appeal to everyone, but it's real. It's a virtual quantity created in the mediasphere by marketing (with real money) and when you buy it you partially acquire it. When you are riding a Pinarello and (some) people go "wow", its ability to have that effect is a genuine property of the product, created by marketing and paid for by you. It's traditional to portray the consumer as the victim of marketing, but as often as not he/she is fully aware of what he is paying for and isn't being deceived at all. There needn't be (probably usually aren't) any victims, there can be a fair and deliberate purchase of a copyrighted image, itself often something highly complex and involving much creative effort to assemble and sustain. When kids buy the latest brand name trainers (or whatever it is they buy these days) are they being ripped off? Of course not, they are gaining the aura of a carefully created multimedia phenomenon and quite possibly a genuinely better chance of scoring with the opposite sex. Arguably it's the parents who are the victims if, through media illiteracy, they are incapable of seeing this intangible value and so believe that they are getting better value if they buy something functionally the same for only slightly less money that completely lacks the power of the brand image.

    Good post :)
    Expertly coached by http://www.vitessecyclecoaching.co.uk/

    http://vineristi.wordpress.com - the blog for Viner owners and lovers!
  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    neeb wrote:
    The interesting thing (just to be a devil's advocate and possibly appear to contradict what I've already said) is that you DO actually get value when you buy a label and a marketing image. It's intangible value, and it may not appeal to everyone, but it's real. It's a virtual quantity created in the mediasphere by marketing (with real money) and when you buy it you partially acquire it. When you are riding a Pinarello and (some) people go "wow", its ability to have that effect is a genuine property of the product, created by marketing and paid for by you. It's traditional to portray the consumer as the victim of marketing, but as often as not he/she is fully aware of what he is paying for and isn't being deceived at all. There needn't be (probably usually aren't) any victims, there can be a fair and deliberate purchase of a copyrighted image, itself often something highly complex and involving much creative effort to assemble and sustain. When kids buy the latest brand name trainers (or whatever it is they buy these days) are they being ripped off? Of course not, they are gaining the aura of a carefully created multimedia phenomenon and quite possibly a genuinely better chance of scoring with the opposite sex. Arguably it's the parents who are the victims if, through media illiteracy, they are incapable of seeing this intangible value and so believe that they are getting better value if they buy something functionally the same for only slightly less money that completely lacks the power of the brand image.

    Good post :)

    +1 but I hope you're not comparing me the parent of a horrible little chav who wants some horrible trainers because some crack-head basketball player in the States wears them? :D
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    +1 but I hope you're not comparing me the parent of a horrible little chav who wants some horrible trainers because some crack-head basketball player in the States wears them? Very Happy
    God forbid. The cycling-related lust for carbon and associated shiny bits is clearly of a wholly different moral order, as this picture proves... :wink:
  • Pretre
    Pretre Posts: 355
    :D
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    Pretre wrote:
    StuAff wrote:
    Viner Maxima. Custom sized. Custom front triangle to suit your weight and riding preferences. Look fantastic, ride beautifully (ask lost_in_thought or Chip \'oyler, both owners). Bang on budget at £3200.

    Good thought - I'll look into this.
    Any idea who in the South of England (not Epic - much too far to go) sells Viner?

    Downland cycles in Canterbury sell Viner.

    If i had 3 grand to spend on frame it would be a Cervelo S3. I would also look at the BMC Team Machine. If it was my second bike I would buy a Pegoretti with a custom paint job.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • Pirahna
    Pirahna Posts: 1,315
    When I enquired last year a custom carbon Bianchi was £2500. You get the frameset, a factory tour, paintwork to your own design and a set of cuctom clothing to match. :D
  • brown132
    brown132 Posts: 8
    Wilier Cento . rides beautifully and very comfy , i also ride a supersix and the wilier is my choice for my sportive rides , if your over 6ft come and try mine in Richmond.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    neeb wrote:
    and quite possibly a genuinely better chance of scoring with the opposite sex. .

    I'd love to know if any pedal bike falls into this category ! ;-)
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,473
    I'd love to know if any pedal bike falls into this category ! Wink
    It might if you're female. I'd definitely consider ownership of a Pinarello to be a desirable attribute in a a woman! :)
  • dcj
    dcj Posts: 395
    pretre, out of interest what did you end up with buying in the end?
  • oscar-j
    oscar-j Posts: 269
    barreg cycles in fishbourne,sussex have some merak frames if you wanted another one.

    they will build it to whatever spec you want.they specialise in de rosa,cervelo,colnago etc.
  • Im biased (as I have one - albeit steel) but if you want custom Italian have you thought about Casati?

    www.ciclicasati.it - Or visit racescene.co.uk.

    Sole Uk distributer is in Barnsley - but if I was spending that kind of money I would definately go custom build.