Police to introduce Bait Bikes

amnezia

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... bait-bikes

Some people worried that may be entrapment :roll:

Oddjob62

I'd prefer this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCAK8ZuqyXc

Jay dubbleU

Why is it entrapment ? They don't have to steal the bike ? OJ's method looks good to me

asprilla

The student decided to 'borrow' a bike? Was he going to find the owner the following morning and return it?

dondare

If they want to get professional bike thieves rather than oportunists then the bikes should be properly locked up and left in locations where one would hope that they would be safe. Then there could be no claim of entrapment. .

Splottboy

So, all these bike are under 16 then?

But, in makeup, they look a LOT older...

EKE_38BPM

IMHO if a bike is locked and is then stolen or is attempted to be stolen, then it isn't entrapment.

A thief who makes off with an unlocked bike could use entrapment as a defence, but if it was locked and tools/equipment/specialist knowledge was used to nick it, lock them up (the thief, not the bike), throw away the key, chop off their hands and don't allow them to play a PS3 on a 60" plasma screen in their two up, two down cell with underfloor heating!



Sorry, came over a bit Daily Mail there.

Basically, I think its not entrapment if you have to go out of your way to nick it (tools etc). If you have the mentality of a thieving scrote, but wasn't intending to nick a bike and just happen to come across an unlocked bike (left by the police) which you ride off on, thats entrapment.

I have vague memories of the Met getting done for parking vans containing easily nickable stuff (laptops, portable CD players etc) unlocked and open around London. The stuff was visible and they had cameras watching the vans. When people passed by, saw the stuff and nicked it, they pounced and arrested them. The cases got thrown out for entrapment I think. Seems fair enough to me, but if the vans were locked or a car alarm had to be silenced, bang them up.
Or community service, tag, probation.. mutter mutter mutter... birchings too good for them, in my day... mutter mutter mutter...

bicyclepirate

there is a really nice brand new city bike that gets left at nottingham station for about 4 nights a week. attached to the bike anchor with a lock i could cut through with a sharp pair of scissors. i just assumed it was a plant, as the bike thieves obviously have to, is the owner just a genius who has outwitted us all.

Mr Sworld

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

deptfordmarmoset

If I'm hungry, walk into a sweet shop and grab a handful of Mars bars from the display, can I claim entrapment? I don't understand why a bike has to be locked up to establish theft - they don't lock up the chocolates, do they?

zrazzle

Why don't they strike a middle ground and leave the bike locked but not locked to anything?

Was pleasantly surprised when in Berlin recently to see people just leave their bikes exactly in this way all over the place. Went to a techno rave (techno? in Berlin?! no way) and was amazing to see literally about 100 bikes all left in this manner outside the warehouse.

lost_in_thought

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

greg66_tri_v2.0

Are they any different to a Tracker (the thing you fit to a car)?

asprilla

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

The Rookie

EKE_38BPM wrote:

A thief who makes off with an unlocked bike could use entrapment as a defence,

Hogwash, for entrapment to be used as a defence there has to be an element of provocation form the Police, ('oi mate look at that unlocked neat bike over there' 'now you are nicked') just leaving it unlocked is NOT entrapment as its passive, case law is clear on that.

Simon

biondino

I don't see the issue here. If you leave your bike unlocked you're asking to have it nicked anyway - it's a stupid thing for anyone to do. Does anyone NOT think this?

So, use bait bikes but lock them (with a relatively flimsy cable lock). No entrapment, premeditated theft pure and simple, and you don't need to warn the thieves you're after them (which seems like a totally f***ing stupid thing to do, like painting speed cameras yellow).

Gussio

Yes, lock the bait bikes and also wire them up to mains electricity.

lost_in_thought

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

But ze police have figured out a way that it DOES work, apparently...

asprilla

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

But ze police have figured out a way that it DOES work, apparently...

Or people just won't be expecting it. It if become ubiquitous then it's easy to defeat.

Bunneh

I was at Morrisons earlier and saw a road bike, parked just inside, with no lock on it. It did cross my mind that it could have been a bait bike.

Whether the bike's locked or not no one deserves to have it stolen by scrotes. I'd chop the thieves' hands off to be brutally honest.

lost_in_thought

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

But ze police have figured out a way that it DOES work, apparently...

Or people just won't be expecting it. It if become ubiquitous then it's easy to defeat.

I understand all the words in those sentences, alas, when combined in this order, they make no sense to me.

asprilla

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

But ze police have figured out a way that it DOES work, apparently...

Or people just won't be expecting it. It if become ubiquitous then it's easy to defeat.

I understand all the words in those sentences, alas, when combined in this order, they make no sense to me.

At the moment, no bike thief is going to look for a gps antenna on a bike because there is no reason to. As soon as they go on sale to the general public thieves will become aware and will be able to locate and disconnect them quickly and easily.

It only works because no-one expects a gps tracker on a bicycle.

In a car the tracker is usually put somewhere inaccessible, like the fuel tank and you could do similar on a bike by putting it in the seat or down tube. However, the antenna in a car can be put in loads of different places like bumpers, under the dash, integrated into the windscreen, the car's existing gps antenna..... Basically anywhere the signal can get out. On a bike your options are on the outside of the frame or the saddle, neither of which will be hard to find and remove or disconnect.

lost_in_thought

Thaaaaaaaanks!

Now I see, yes, you have a valid point. I would still like to get more info on the trackers police are using... Maybe they've found an iphone-4-esque way of incorporating the antenna into another component.

asprilla

The iPhone works because it's mainly plastic and glass, very little actual metal to block the signal.

desweller

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Mr Sworld wrote:

Ummmm. What are these 'hidden GPS devices' and why can't I buy one?

+1

There was a thread about this a little while ago. Unfortunately the GPS antenna has to be external; it won't penetrate metal or carbon fibre. There aren't many possible mounting places, so if everyone had them theives would very soon become wise and be able to quickly remove or disconnect the antenna.

But ze police have figured out a way that it DOES work, apparently...

Or people just won't be expecting it. It if become ubiquitous then it's easy to defeat.

I understand all the words in those sentences, alas, when combined in this order, they make no sense to me.

I can think of quite a few ways to do it. The frequencies are in the GHz range so the antenna is quite short and easily concealed.

You could make a special seat post with an insulated antenna near the top or perhaps in between the saddle and the seatpost. Or even install it directly into the saddle.

You could drill a hole in the frame and bond the antenna onto the surface of the frame, then apply some plastic padding over it before painting the frame to hide it.

You could hide it under a mudguard or under bar tape. Or make a custom 'cycle computer' with one in (hidden in plain sight as it were).

Also, the tube thicknesses on good metal frames are very low so they do not attenuate the signal very much. And I doubt that CFRP attenuates high frequency radio a great deal, but I freely admit that this is not my area of expertise.

With good design and good understanding of signals I would have thought a clever engineer could overcome these problems.

asprilla

Under the bar tape is an excellent idea. You would be able to disconnect it via the stem, but that's not a 'simple' job.

Unfortunately CF does a great job of defeating microwave signals, or at least it does according to the previous thread.

Wrath Rob

Why not use a brake cable as an antenna?

If not then there are plenty of places that you can use on a bike that are not very obvious to theives, just not quite as hidden as on a car

desweller

Asprilla wrote:

Under the bar tape is an excellent idea. You would be able to disconnect it via the stem, but that's not a 'simple' job.

Unfortunately CF does a great job of defeating microwave signals, or at least it does according to the previous thread.

They're not microwaves, just radio signals. Microwaves are in the band 110GHz to 140GHz, but GPS is 1.5GHz.

Wavelength ~200mm so full length antenna could just about be fitted under bar tape.

Can you point me to the previous thread?

asprilla

Here you go: http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... ht=antenna

rjsterry

An interesting, sort-of-related fact that I came across a year or so ago is that the low-emissivity coating on new double-glazed windows (it's a transparent coating of metallic oxide on the inside of the outer pane that reduces the amount of heat lost through the window) also knocks out mobile phone signals to a noticeable degree. Apparently mobile phone signals have a wavelength close enough to that of infra-red radiation (which the coating is designed to reflect) for them to be affected. So if you get your windows replaced, you might notice a change in your phone reception.

desweller

DesWeller wrote:

They're not microwaves, just radio signals. Microwaves are in the band 110GHz to 140GHz, but GPS is 1.5GHz.

Apologues, this is nonsense.