CTT entries on the line

vivslack

I know the rule 'never try and change the CTT' but...

What are the arguments against having entry on the line for open CTT events that aren't full?
I know its the rule, i know 'thats not what we do', but really, what are the underlying reasons?
It seems if someone has gone to the effort of putting on an event and has police permission for more riders, why not? They wouldn't be seeded right but does that really matter?

Not trying to be controversial, just a thought.

Pokerface

If there was no need to enter beforehand, you'd have a lot more people who WOULDN'T enter until the day. Makes it harder for the organizers. Not just for seeding, but just in terms of making the events feasible, etc.


Yes - I find it a pain and yes I wish you could EOL for more open events. I guess it's just one of those things you have to plan ahead for.

SteveR_100Milers

I'm with you on this, along with on line entry and payment.

To be fair to the organiser and competitors, then any on line entries might perhaps have to be part of a separate "overflow" event, as a lot of riders take the seeding seriously; though its better to have a minute man of any ability than none at all.

Pokerface

+1 for an online entry system. Soooooo sick of sending cheques off. Pretty much the only time I still have to use them!

SBezza

It comes down to seeding more than anything I would assume, though no doubt this could change somehow. Seeding to some people is important.

I personally don't have any issues with planning and entering events in advance, and paying via cheques is not an issue. Not finding out if you are in an event or not that is oversubscribed until the last minute needs to be sorted out though (not that I personally have issues, I know plenty of people that have lost out because of it).

I would be happy with an online payment system, as long as the cost to me was no more than sending a cheque off, and this is not normally the case, I think last year when they had one sort of working, it was over £1 to use it, not alot I know, but more the prinicpal of it.

vivslack

Hey theres some good ideas here. Official winners, prizes etc could be open only to the people that entered in advance but you could still let people ride in the spare places at the end. They would still get a ride and a time which is all most of us care about but appear separately on the results. That would be a good solution wouldn't it? Keep the people that like all the rules happy, make running the event worthwhile, get more people racing...

The only downside i think is a bit more work for the people doing signing on as there would be money to collect on the day. If i was running the event i would think it was worth it. It could be optional, up to the organiser to say Y or N to entries on the line, same as it is for CTT and TLI.

There have been some brilliant suggestions and solutions for online entry too but how do we get them talked about by the people that make the decisions? The people in charge of the CTT are generally scared of change and technology. They need to be open to all the possibilities.

Pross

I'm not sure how many people would turn up and enter on the line though in any case. You'd have to be there before the start so could be hanging around for ages waiting your turn. It isn't that difficult or much to expect for someone to enter a couple of weeks in advance and should help you plan your racing. The only exception to this is if you have entered another race but not made it due to over-subscription.

I would agree with an online entry system though and wouldn't mind paying an extra 50p or £1 to do this as you have to buy a stamp and sometimes send an SAE with your entry by post.

andy_wrx

Re EOL, wouldn't the risk be there'd be lots of people who would put off entering until they saw the weather on the day, then wouldn't bother going because it was windy, raining, too cold, too hot, etc and so the organisers would be left with a half-full event and make a loss ?

John.T

andy_wrx wrote:

Re EOL, wouldn't the risk be there'd be lots of people who would put off entering until they saw the weather on the day, then wouldn't bother going because it was windy, raining, too cold, too hot, etc and so the organisers would be left with a half-full event and make a loss ?

Quite. Exactly what would happen. Followed by those who did pre-enter finding the event cancelled because of too few entries and too late to enter another event. EOL is a non starter unless you want entry fees to go up to ensure cover for low entries.

SteveR_100Milers

John.T wrote:

andy_wrx wrote:

Re EOL, wouldn't the risk be there'd be lots of people who would put off entering until they saw the weather on the day, then wouldn't bother going because it was windy, raining, too cold, too hot, etc and so the organisers would be left with a half-full event and make a loss ?

Quite. Exactly what would happen. Followed by those who did pre-enter finding the event cancelled because of too few entries and too late to enter another event. EOL is a non starter unless you want entry fees to go up to ensure cover for low entries.

I think that those who are happy to enter in advance will continue to do so, especially if you get the advantage of lower price, seeding, better prize money. Maybe if EOL entrants don't count towards BAR competition then you won't deter 'serious' entrants via the normal system, but open it it up to beginners or those less serious who today might not bother entering at all. I really don't see a mass migration from advance to EOL if you offered that choice providing some thought is given to it first.

John.T

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

John.T wrote:

andy_wrx wrote:

Re EOL, wouldn't the risk be there'd be lots of people who would put off entering until they saw the weather on the day, then wouldn't bother going because it was windy, raining, too cold, too hot, etc and so the organisers would be left with a half-full event and make a loss ?

Quite. Exactly what would happen. Followed by those who did pre-enter finding the event cancelled because of too few entries and too late to enter another event. EOL is a non starter unless you want entry fees to go up to ensure cover for low entries.

I think that those who are happy to enter in advance will continue to do so, especially if you get the advantage of lower price, seeding, better prize money. Maybe if EOL entrants don't count towards BAR competition then you won't deter 'serious' entrants via the normal system, but open it it up to beginners or those less serious who today might not bother entering at all. I really don't see a mass migration from advance to EOL if you offered that choice providing some thought is given to it first.

This is not the experience of some Trailquest and TLI organisers. When offering EOL pre entries dropped by about 50% and several events were subsequently cancelled as the organiser did not want to risk a loss. Pre-entry shows some comitment to the event (and organiser) even if you do not ride in the end due to bad weather etc,etc.

Slow1972

EOL or an increased number of reserves would help to fill the gaps left by DNS's though. Particularly annoying I would imagine for those who narrowly miss a cut-off time I would suspect.

If the argument is just about filling the race and expecting people to pre-plan - why not make it first past the post? What's fairer than simply giving a ride to those who enter first...?

vivslack

Interesting thoughts, thanks for that. Thats what i was after, some proper discussion - i know these forums are meant more for taking the p1ss out of each other but it's good to talk about things like this once in a while.

Id definitely still plan my big races in advance and any popular events would still get full im sure, im thinking more for less popular events, the organiser could say EOL if its not full. For example tonight westmead 88 have an event that i think only has about 30 odd entries in advance. They normally have an EOL club event which is really popular but they cant fill it with last minute entries this time cause its an open event. The same with the wheelers 50 - we were running it anyway so being able to fill it up on the day would have been nice. Personally some of my other plans for the week were messed up through work so just made me think that sometimes a last minute option would be nice.

I wouldnt want it to stop races getting full or make more work for the organiser. Still think its worth exploring options.

SteveR_100Milers

John.T wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

John.T wrote:

andy_wrx wrote:

Re EOL, wouldn't the risk be there'd be lots of people who would put off entering until they saw the weather on the day, then wouldn't bother going because it was windy, raining, too cold, too hot, etc and so the organisers would be left with a half-full event and make a loss ?

Quite. Exactly what would happen. Followed by those who did pre-enter finding the event cancelled because of too few entries and too late to enter another event. EOL is a non starter unless you want entry fees to go up to ensure cover for low entries.

I think that those who are happy to enter in advance will continue to do so, especially if you get the advantage of lower price, seeding, better prize money. Maybe if EOL entrants don't count towards BAR competition then you won't deter 'serious' entrants via the normal system, but open it it up to beginners or those less serious who today might not bother entering at all. I really don't see a mass migration from advance to EOL if you offered that choice providing some thought is given to it first.

This is not the experience of some Trailquest and TLI organisers. When offering EOL pre entries dropped by about 50% and several events were subsequently cancelled as the organiser did not want to risk a loss. Pre-entry shows some comitment to the event (and organiser) even if you do not ride in the end due to bad weather etc,etc.

is the key word perhaps, there are many events that work with both advance and EOL entries. One consideration is the up front cost, for a large event that can et quite big, hence I guess why sportives are all advance entry only.

Ultimately though, no one concept is going to be the right solution in all cases, it's a question of whether there are improvements to be had. There is a lot of ground between all advance and all EOL. I'm all for challenging the Olde Way in the quest for some kaizen

Neil Buckley

It should be a little more relaxed anyhow, im a soldier and with my job I cannot allways do a postal entry, like at the moment im in Afghanistan and im soon home on R&R I phone up and try to explain my case saying ill pay on the day but I still get refused, think I have a good excuse being that my mail takes around a month to get out of theatre! I would have entered paid them money and come back out herer by the time they get a postal entry!