Spoke choice advice please

captain_tiara

In the proccess of updating 10 year old open pro ceramics with a new set.

Old ones still fine, but technology moves on & weight comes down. And colour schemes change! Can't believe they've been my mainstay wheels for so long & are still absolutely fine. Sachs New Succes hubs were obviously a good choice, I've only changed the cartridge bearings once in all that time. On the 3rd frame & 2nd groupset tho.

Going for all black this time - Black Hope Pro 3 Hubs, & want black spokes/nipples. You can probably guess my present bike is black.

I've got a decent wheel builder, but he's changing work place & moving house & if i ask him one more question I'm in danger of being told to go away & procreate.

I only weigh 70-75kg, & don't crash into stuff much.

1) Are the lightweight D/B spokes suitable? Eg DT Revolution / Sapim Laser & is there any difference between the 2?

2)My present back has drive side/off side spoke differential [plain off, apline T/B drive, was built to last]. Is there any point putting sturdier spokes on the drive side & what combination would anyone recommend?

Thanks for any advice.

andrew_s

1) No difference apart from availability/cost

2) I'd suggest 2.3/2mm (13/14g) on the drive side and 2/1.5mm (14/16g) on the near side (the drive side is the off side on the roads I ride on).
If you have stiffer (less stretchy) spokes on the drive side, there's less sideways force on the rim as it flexes at the ground. The butting doesn't matter so much as having a thinner central section on the non-drive side (other than the general point that thicker spoke heads are more fatigue resistant).
It's all pretty marginal though. I use 2/1.8 on both sides, mostly because I'm a cheapskate and the 2.3/2 butted cost more.

Monty Dog

I built a pair of Open Pros with DT Revs and was pretty disappointed. They were so flexy and twisty it was really tricky getting high enough tension without getting wind-up in the spokes. Then the aluminium nipples started cracking due to corrosion. Rebuilt the wheels with regular double butted spokes on drive side and replaced the alloy nipples with brass ones. Wheels were ridden the length of the South Downs Way and a winter cross season - haven't needed touching since

captain_tiara

Thanks guys, you've hepled me make my mind up. I've had a good trawl of the interweb and to answer my own questions.

1) Sapims seem to have a greater number of fans, judging by wheel builders & technical posts i've found. And black spoke option is throughout the metal unlike DT coating so no sctratch off. And they come wilth black plated brass nipples, not aluminium alloy.

2) Seing how my old ceramic rear is built with different drive/non drive spokes, and its still in very good condition, going for Lasers [2mm-1.5mm] front & rear non drive & Race [2mm-1.8mm] drive side rear. Just to make my mind up for me found packs of 50 at dotbike the cheapest, so just have to source 16 Race, which i can do a lot easier [ Evans in london apparantley 50p each].

All ordered, now to sell off 2 pairs of wheels!

captain_tiara

Had the wheels a while, must have done 1500k on them by now. Still totally true.

Just looking at the sapim spokes i now believe they are better than DT, especially when you see quite how well made the lasers are.

And the psychological effect of knowing your wheels are that little bit lighter and more aero makes you grow more red blood cells, how else do you explain going faster?

Berk Bonebonce

With DB spokes you get less breakages because they are more inclined to flex rather than break. But you don't half get a stiffer wheel if you use plain gauge.

Agree?

captain_tiara

Not sure about the physics on this one. No doubt someone out there has a PhD in spoke lore, but in my recent experience I'm not sure it's true.

My old ceramics are plain gauge / alpine TB [2.3-2mm], my new ones very DB'd, and to be honest there is no flex i've noticed, even giving it my max welly up hills. I suppose you can tighten up better spokes more, or so they say.

Mostly I think it comes down to build quality. The guy who built mine's been a mechanic for 25+ years & is the best builder I know in London. I would not reccomend learning & doing your own even with a tension gauge. You're going to have to build several hundred before you catchup skill levels.

I've had factory wheels, yes responsive etc but also harsh on yer arse & frame. Go for a wheel with less spokes & when something goes out of alignment you've got less chance of recovery. These are 32 3x lacing, and still come out at 1650g, and unless I ding them should last forever. Nicest wheels I've ever ridden. Certainly no flex.

So no, I don't agree.

balthazar

Captain Tiara wrote:

My old ceramics are plain gauge / alpine TB [2.3-2mm], my new ones very DB'd, and to be honest there is no flex i've noticed, even giving it my max welly up hills. I suppose you can tighten up better spokes more, or so they say.

Butted (swaged) spokes are preferred because they result in a stronger wheel than plain-gauge, all else even (their extra flexibility allows them to support the rim during larger deflections). Spoke choice has no consequence for how highly they can be tensioned: this is true because – if tensioned to destruction – the rim will fail first, regardless of spokes. However, spokes with a very small cross-section (DT Revolution, etc) are particularly frustrating to use, because they twist so easily. I prefer ordinary 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes for all purposes.

I disagree that great experience is necessary to build fine wheels. There is no reason that the first set you build are not as good as any other, if you do so with good instruction and are not in a hurry. With experience comes speed and adaptability, however.

rake

20-1.8s are most common. i read one wheel builder switched to sapim because dt made the elbow slightly longer to make them easier to fit but sapim fit more snugly in the hub. i would have thought the rate of stretch in thicker 2.3-20 spokes would better match the higher tension and load on the reduced dish side.

captain_tiara

As I said earlier, the level of finish on the Lasers is much better than anything else I've ever seen. Given that the butting results in molecule chains in the same orientation & therefore actually stronger than plain gauge we're on the same hymn sheet.

If I compare the finish between the DT Revolutions on some Ambrosio Excellence rims i've got and my lovely new ones, the quality difference jumps out at you. Couple that with the simple but effective difference between the nipple technology [ prolock with threadlock, meaning any later adjustment is difficult, vs polyax meaning next stage engineering evolution simplicity, sorry i'm a builder & will even argue over rawplug technology cos they are not all the same].

And as a builder I'd say there's theoretically no reason you couldn't build a stud wall as well as me, it's only bits of wood after all. In practice you do learn from mistakes, improve your skill levels, get your eye in, whatever platitude you want to weave in, so in reality I believe there's no way you could do it as well as me. The minutae make a difference.

If the pro's prefer Lasers then they must have their reasons......And as I said, I think my Laser laced wheels are worth every penny of the extra £20 out of a £400 budget, which really is the important thing.