OT: Naive defending.

always_tyred

In football pundit language:

Afrian teams defend "naively"
England/France/others defend "poorly"

Is this inadvertantly racist? Comment.

davmaggs

Surely a bit early to post fake controversy?

always_tyred

davmaggs wrote:

Surely a bit early to post fake controversy?

Actually, I'm serious. I remember back as far as about the 86 world cup and certainly in regard to the plucky but basically violent Cameroon team of 1990.

The other day I was listening to David Pleat and Jonathan Pearce and they are still using the same rhetoric. Its 2010. Most of the players are seasoned professionals in the European leagues.

To me it sounds patronising and appears to be solely applicable to African teams.

Could be that dim witted pundits grasp for familiar cliches.

ketsbaia

Always Tyred wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

Surely a bit early to post fake controversy?

Could be that dim witted pundits grasp for familiar cliches.

No. Really?

spasypaddy

no, defenders playing for england/italy/spain are playing against world class strikers week in week out. Alot of the african/asian defenders are playing at a lower level and therefore not playing against these world class players week in, week out. Therefore they are naive to the movement, the power, the ability of these players.

cee

hoho...

my lovely lady is doing her phd on the translation of post colonial (french antillian) literature.

there is lots of evidence that use of language by the post-coloniser, is in fact as you suggest prejudicial...

Again.. quite subtle and not overtly racist as such...however the demeaning nature of the naive vs "just not very good", does in fact suggest that the naive defenders just don't kow any better, and therefor not really seen as equal.

always_tyred

cee wrote:

hoho...

my lovely lady is doing her phd on the translation of post colonial (french antillian) literature.

there is lots of evidence that use of language by the post-coloniser, is in fact as you suggest prejudicial...

Again.. quite subtle and not overtly racist as such...however the demeaning nature of the naive vs "just not very good", does in fact suggest that the naive defenders just don't kow any better, and therefor not really seen as equal.

Ah ha. I thought I was alone there for a minute.

I notice that the proposition that all of the defenders are seasoned professionals in top European leagues sort of went ignored.....

MonkeyMonster

spasypaddy wrote:

no, defenders playing for england/italy/spain are playing against world class strikers week in week out. Alot of the african/asian defenders are playing at a lower level and therefore not playing against these world class players week in, week out. Therefore they are naive to the movement, the power, the ability of these players.

I did think that this might be the case or lean towards - I hadn't heard of any african defenders being out in the big leagues...

spasypaddy

i do think that within the next 3 world cups we will see a shift of power slightly towards the African teams. I could see them challenging at the semi finals on a regular basis soon enough.

I for one hope that my prediction comes true. They have some wonderful talent, if a little naive

cee

spasypaddy wrote:

no, defenders playing for england/italy/spain are playing against world class strikers week in week out. Alot of the african/asian defenders are playing at a lower level and therefore not playing against these world class players week in, week out. Therefore they are naive to the movement, the power, the ability of these players.

erm...

South Africa....Mokoena plays in england for portsmouth, Pienaar although a midfielder plays for everton.
Ivory Coast.............have defenders that play for arsenal, sevilla, man city, stuttgart....an dof course a midfielder that plays for barcelona, and a striker for chelsea!
Ghana....again have defenders who play for Fulham, sunderland, midfilders for bologna and inter, then forwards who play for AC Milan and portsmouth....

Surely that makes your comment completely redundant...and almost proves the point. You assume that their players don't play against quality....again, not overtly racist, but a prejudicial assumption which is engrained in our culture (language being in-seperable from culture.)

bigmat

spasypaddy wrote:

i do think that within the next 3 world cups we will see a shift of power slightly towards the African teams. I could see them challenging at the semi finals on a regular basis soon enough.

I for one hope that my prediction comes true. They have some wonderful talent, if a little naive

Im sorry, is it 1990?

Kind of strange that no African teams have stepped up to a level where they can really challenge, but I guess their domestic infrastructure tends to lack the investment we have.

Re the whole "naive" thing, I found that slightly patronising 20 years ago, haven't picked up on it this time round but poor if they are still saying it. Still, is it any worse than calling the Germans "efficient" or referring to "Total Football" and the Cruyff turn whenever the Dutch play? (actually, it is worse, but I'm not convinced there's any malevolent intent there...)

always_tyred

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I did think that this might be the case or lean towards - I hadn't heard of any african defenders being out in the big leagues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... vory_coast

Defenders representing La Liga, Premeiership, Scottish Premier League and Bundesliga.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... m/cameroon

Defenders representing Ligue 1, Premiership, Bundesliga.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... team/ghana

Defenders from Danish leauge, Swiss league, premiership.

always_tyred

MatHammond wrote:

(actually, it is worse, but I'm not convinced there's any malevolent intent there...)

Oh, I don't think its conscious for a second. Even Ron Atkinson didn't mean it.

spasypaddy

most of those clubs you have listed dont play for a club thats playing in the Europa League on a regular nevertheless the Champions League. Which is what i was referring to.

Ivory coast are currently an anomaly and who should have put up a better fight and got through their group (at the expense of Portugal) and made the semi finals based on their squad. Unfortunately with Sven in charge they wont do anything. What has let them down is the players that don't play for the big clubs. (see keita last night)

So no that doesnt make my comment redundant.

tailwindhome

MatHammond wrote:

Kind of strange that no African teams have stepped up to a level where they can really challenge,

Except Algeria (arguably weakest African team) obviously.

tailwindhome

Always Tyred wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

(actually, it is worse, but I'm not convinced there's any malevolent intent there...)

Oh, I don't think its conscious for a second. Even Ron Atkinson didn't mean it.

It is just cliche

Like the dodgy foreign ref, the dutch infighting, the cheating French*, the plucky English spirit, the efficient Germans, the suspect Hispanic temperament, yadda yadda yadda


*this one's true though

cee

TailWindHome wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

(actually, it is worse, but I'm not convinced there's any malevolent intent there...)

Oh, I don't think its conscious for a second. Even Ron Atkinson didn't mean it.

It is just cliche

Like the dodgy foreign ref, the dutch infighting, the cheating French*, the plucky English spirit, the efficient Germans, the suspect Hispanic temperament, yadda yadda yadda


*this one's true though

except this time round its the french infighting, the suspect english temperament, the cheating germans, the efficient dutch and the plucky hispanic spirit! yadda yadda yadda!

In fact...which of the european teams are playing to the quality they have on paper...the south americans have been good..I have also been shouting at the telly for the North Koreans!

always_tyred

spasypaddy wrote:

most of those clubs you have listed dont play for a club thats playing in the Europa League on a regular nevertheless the Champions League. Which is what i was referring to.

Ivory coast are currently an anomaly and who should have put up a better fight and got through their group (at the expense of Portugal) and made the semi finals based on their squad. Unfortunately with Sven in charge they wont do anything. What has let them down is the players that don't play for the big clubs. (see keita last night)

So no that doesnt make my comment redundant.

Switzerland have players in this category, so do Australia and New Zealand.

What about Mexico, Paraguay or Chile?

bigmat

TailWindHome wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

Kind of strange that no African teams have stepped up to a level where they can really challenge the teams with a chance of winning the World Cup,

Except Algeria (arguably weakest African team) obviously.

Edited!

spasypaddy

they also defend naively. the commentators just dont mention it.

Australia, and NZ have got lucky so far. i for one was glad to see harry kewell sent off

always_tyred

spasypaddy wrote:

they also defend naively. the commentators just dont mention it.

Which is precisely the point.

spasypaddy

oh i was arguing the fact that they are defending naively, not the fact that the commentators dont mention it for the other teams.

PBo

Always Tyred wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I did think that this might be the case or lean towards - I hadn't heard of any african defenders being out in the big leagues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... vory_coast

Defenders representing La Liga, Premeiership, Scottish Premier League and Bundesliga.

Shurely shome mishtake

( A big hello to our scottish commuters)

Wallace1492

PBo wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I did think that this might be the case or lean towards - I hadn't heard of any african defenders being out in the big leagues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... vory_coast

Defenders representing La Liga, Premeiership, Scottish Premier League and Bundesliga.

Shurely shome mishtake

( A big hello to our scottish commuters)

Hello!! Not a good league, yes, but two clubs regulalrly ply their trade on the big stage in Europe. And have been known to put the occassional English team to the sword.

We are crap and we know we are.

cee

indeed.

if scottish teams know anything about anything...its defending...since the forwards and midfielders are so poor...they get a lot of practice!

tailwindhome

BBC Radio 5 live's Graham Taylor "This has been a thoroughly naive and inept performance from North Korea."

Thats better.

always_tyred

TailWindHome wrote:

BBC Radio 5 live's Graham Taylor "This has been a thoroughly naive and inept performance from North Korea."

Thats better.

Bloody Graham Taylor.

7-0. Fair enough.