Friday Rant

mrc1

I'm getting really annoyed by the number of obviously stolen bikes being ridden around the streets in London.

Case in point:

Last night I was on Holloway Road and stopped for one of the crossings. A group of 4 lads (who can only be described as chavs - caps, hoodies, jogging bottoms, smoking and pulling wheelies etc) cycled across the crossing on:

1. Marin hybrid commuter bike with a rack for panniers - frame size to fit a 6ft plus bloke but the kid on it was prob circa 5ft 8

2. Silver specialized road bike - kid riding it was wearing trainers despite it having spd pedals.

3. A generic flat bar commuter bike - something like a ridgeback or a genesis - again spd pedals while the kid had trainers. Again the frame was far too big for him.

4. A new decent quality looking bmx.

They pulled up outside a shop and were stood outside it as I passed through.

About 200 meters up the road coming the other way was a police car so i went over to the car, explained that there was a gang of lads on bikes that were obviously stolen and the copper said they would take a look but he didnt seem at all interested. Not sure what happened after that although i very much doubt that the police did or were able to do anything.

Now I may have stereotyped them and they may indeed have gone into evans and bought ill fitting commuting bikes with spd pedals and panniers but I highly doubt it. It makes me so angry that bikes are stolen and then ridden around by these idiots so brazenly.

The police should be able and prepared to use a power to confiscate bikes in this circumstance - even if they didnt steal them themselves they will have bought them from the thief safe in the knowledge that they are stolen.

dhope

Bloke across the office from me had his 10yr old £2000 downhill bike nicked. Cops phoned him back a few weeks later saying they'd collared a 'yoof' riding it because the kid looked out of place on the bike. So it does happen.

mrc1

dhope wrote:

Bloke across the office from me had his 10yr old £2000 downhill bike nicked. Cops phoned him back a few weeks later saying they'd collared a 'yoof' riding it because the kid looked out of place on the bike. So it does happen.

Fair enough - I just wish there would be a crack down as I probably see 10 bikes a week that I would bet money on being stolen. If there was a high profile operation it would surely deter thieves?

DonDaddyD

Sometimes I pick my Kuota up wearing trainers and a hoodie.

It has SPD sl pedals, should I be stopped and questioned too?

Bike theives annoy me, shops that sell stolen bikes annoy me more.

dhope

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sometimes I pick my Kuota up wearing trainers and a hoodie.

It has SPD sl pedals, should I be stopped and questioned too?

Bike theives annoy me, shops that sell stolen bikes annoy me more.

Do you have a short mate that rides a big bike?

mrc1

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sometimes I pick my Kuota up wearing trainers and a hoodie.

It has SPD sl pedals, should I be stopped and questioned too?

Bike theives annoy me, shops that sell stolen bikes annoy me more.

Is your Kuota 2 sizes too big for you?

magicrhodes

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sometimes I pick my Kuota up wearing trainers and a hoodie.

It has SPD sl pedals, should I be stopped and questioned too?

Bike theives annoy me, shops that sell stolen bikes annoy me more.

Would you be happier if you were stopped and let go again in the hope that stopping brings some bikes back to their owners?

DonDaddyD

Mrc1 wrote:

Is your Kuota 2 sizes too big for you?

No, but that's not the point. I'm not exactly svelte what with being 15.5st . Some might argue that I'd look out of place on a bike like that.

Lets not start assuming that a person is a theif simply because we think that they can't afford or look out of place "on a bike like that".

It's like if I role up in an Alfa GT or Merc (I might get either, going off the Honda CIvic idea) did I steal it or sell drugs because "surely I couldn't afford it". It's that kind of mindset.

DonDaddyD

magicrhodes wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sometimes I pick my Kuota up wearing trainers and a hoodie.

It has SPD sl pedals, should I be stopped and questioned too?

Bike theives annoy me, shops that sell stolen bikes annoy me more.

Would you be happier if you were stopped and let go again in the hope that stopping brings some bikes back to their owners?

Read, learn.

I'm not saying that bike theives shouldn't be hunted down.

However, if I gave my Kuota to my 16 year old brother to ride, should he then be stopped because he doesn't look the part, what with his head of fully plaited hair, jeans, trainers, hood or cap?

I don't see why I should play victim to peoples prejudice because I have money and can afford something that I may not look like I could or should be able to afford.

mrc1

DonDaddyD wrote:

Mrc1 wrote:

Is your Kuota 2 sizes too big for you?

No, but that's not the point. I'm not exactly svelte what with being 15.5st . Some might argue that I'd look out of place on a bike like that.

Lets not start assuming that a person is a theif simply because we think that they can't afford or look out of place "on a bike like that".

It's like if I role up in an Alfa GT or Merc (I might get either, going off the Honda CIvic idea) did I steal it or sell drugs because "surely I couldn't afford it". It's that kind of mindset.

I disagree - its more fitness for purpose:

1. Were the bikes even vaguely the right size for the people - no

2. Is it likely that a 16-17 year old kid pulling wheelies outside a shop on holloway road late in the evening would buy a £500 commuting bike with panniers and spds - no

DonDaddyD

mrc1 wrote:

I disagree - its more fitness for purpose:

1. Were the bikes even vaguely the right size for the people - no

2. Is it likely that a 16-17 year old kid pulling wheelies outside a shop on holloway road late in the evening would buy a £500 commuting bike with panniers and spds - no

Read, learn.

I'm not saying that bike theives shouldn't be hunted down.

However, if I gave my Kuota to my 16 year old brother to ride, should he then be stopped because he doesn't look the part, what with his head of fully plaited hair, jeans, trainers, hood or cap?

I don't see why I should play victim to peoples prejudice because I have money and can afford something that I may not look like I could or should be able to afford.

davmaggs

The Evening Standard had a piece the other day saying that Police had been planting bikes to be stolen and once tracked they nicked the thieves and theft pretty much collapsed in one area. It seems that the organised element isn't that big and with some effort (perhaps C4 in the seat tube) they can be sorted.

Police often know the local oeiks and do sometimes take their bikes until a receipt is produced. Needless to say that hasn't happened.

notsoblue

I think you're overreacting a little here DDD.

Having experienced it first hand, I don't feel that what MRC is describing is the same as racial profiling.

Its not unreasonable to suspect that a kid in casual clothes riding around in an estate on a £1000 bike with SPDs pulling wheelies probably didn't borrow it from his brother.

DonDaddyD

davmaggs wrote:

The Evening Standard had a piece the other day saying that Police had been planting bikes to be stolen and once tracked they nicked the thieves and theft pretty much collapsed in one area. It seems that the organised element isn't that big and with some effort (perhaps C4 in the seat tube) they can be sorted.

Police often know the local oeiks and do sometimes take their bikes until a receipt is produced. Needless to say that hasn't happened.

I'm not sure the ink on the receipt for my Kuota is still visible. If the police attempted to take my Kuota on suspision(sp) then they would be arressting me. Do it enough times wrongly in a single area and Brixton riots (potentially).

I do however, like the chipped planted bikes plan though. Good one that.

DonDaddyD

notsoblue wrote:

I think you're overreacting a little here DDD.

Having experienced it first hand, I don't feel that what MRC is describing is the same as racial profiling.

Its not unreasonable to suspect that a kid in casual clothes riding around in an estate on a £1000 bike with SPDs pulling wheelies probably didn't borrow it from his brother.

No, I'm really not.

It doesn't even have to be racial profiling. It's profiling of any kind for the purpose of exacting negative pre-judgement on a group of people that I have a problem with.

lost_in_thought

If the po-leeeeece are able to track bikes, I think I should be able to too. Where do I obtain a bike-tracking device?

mrc1

DonDaddyD wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

I disagree - its more fitness for purpose:

1. Were the bikes even vaguely the right size for the people - no

2. Is it likely that a 16-17 year old kid pulling wheelies outside a shop on holloway road late in the evening would buy a £500 commuting bike with panniers and spds - no

Read, learn.

I'm not saying that bike theives shouldn't be hunted down.

However, if I gave my Kuota to my 16 year old brother to ride, should he then be stopped because he doesn't look the part, what with his head of fully plaited hair, jeans, trainers, hood or cap?

I don't see why I should play victim to peoples prejudice because I have money and can afford something that I may not look like I could or should be able to afford.

I think you are guilty of making assumptions yourself there DDD - you know nothing about me, my background or my knowledge of the Brixton riots.

It isnt even a comparable situation in any event - Im not suggesting giving the police wide ranging powers to search people - the situation is confined to a tiny number of people that are riding stupidly sized/bizarre/unsuitable bikes - by my reckoning that is probably a handful of people across london.

Lets face it - the average policeman probably doesnt know much about bikes so reporting your stolen kuota and giving a description to them is probably not going to result in its return.

tailwindhome

I think if you knew anything about bikes then it's reasonable to suspect that in the scenario above the bikes may be stolen.

However there's a fine line between acting on a reasonable suspicion and assumptions based on 'profiling'.

There was an IRA bomb on a bus in London (think it was London). One of the tabloids printed a picture of the suspected bomber based on the fact that he had a Irish name. Fella was just on his way back from work...

desweller

lost_in_thought wrote:

If the po-leeeeece are able to track bikes, I think I should be able to too. Where do I obtain a bike-tracking device?

I think some people have had success using pet trackers. Basically they have a GPS receiver and a mobile phone circuit, so when you text them they text back their GPS coordinates. Trouble is, as they're designed to go on a pet collar, they're usually the wrong shape to fit into a seat tube.

Wouldn't be hard to make a suitably shaped unit to fit into a seat tube, maybe along the same lines as a SFN so you can't get it out, and charge using an inductive circuit that you clamp on the seat tube. Don't know why no-one's done it TBH.

DonDaddyD

I think if you knew anything about bikes then it's reasonable to suspect that in the
scenario above the bikes may be stolen.

I don't think anyone has the right to make that assumption. The bikes could have been bought second hand, we aren't talking high end carbon bling.

The bikes could have been sold one size up on the grounds the teenager was likely to grow and a properly fitting bike may be too small for him in a years time. A bike was sold to me for that very same reason.

The teenager may in fact have SPD shoes.

At this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you all.

desweller

I'm with DDD on this one. Making these assumptions is prejudice, plain and simple. I too often ride my roadie down the shops in whatever I happen to be wearing - I certainly don't always don a full cycling get-up to run short errands.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

At this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you all.

I suspect this is mostly because it's Friday and you are working your notice in a job you have no further interest in

mrc1

DesWeller wrote:

I'm with DDD on this one. Making these assumptions is prejudice, plain and simple. I too often ride my roadie down the shops in whatever I happen to be wearing - I certainly don't always don a full cycling get-up to run short errands.

Me neither - I think you have missed my point somewhat in any event.

If I was pulled over by the police while riding my nice bike in a hoodie and flip flops etc I wouldnt mind one bit - in fact id be happy. All it would take is a few simple questions from the policeman (after they look at the bike) - "What are those pedals" or "What make are the tyres on your bike" or "What rear mech has it got" etc would be enough to establish suspicion.

I imagine in this situation a person who shouldnt be on the bike would be a) clueless b) abusive etc.

desweller

mrc1 wrote:

If I was pulled over by the police while riding my nice bike in a hoodie and flip flops etc I wouldnt mind one bit - in fact id be happy.

:shock:

mrc1

DesWeller wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

If I was pulled over by the police while riding my nice bike in a hoodie and flip flops etc I wouldnt mind one bit - in fact id be happy.

:shock:

Happy in the knowledge that if it was nicked the police would be likely to pull someone over.

All it takes is a couple of questions and the police would have a pretty good idea whether it was stolen and I cant see why you would object to that:

"Where is it from"? - Evans at spitalfields, I bought it three months ago etc - rather than "some bloke" etc etc

desweller

Let me clarify what you're suggesting:

a) The police should be able to stop and question anyone who does not conform to a stereotypical cyclist, without any evidence of wrongdoing

b) Whoever is pulled over can be released if they can tell the questioning officer where they got the bike from without descending into an incoherent panicking mess

I don't think you've thought this through.

mrc1

DesWeller wrote:

Let me clarify what you're suggesting:

a) The police should be able to stop and question anyone who does not conform to a stereotypical cyclist, without any evidence of wrongdoing

b) Whoever is pulled over can be released if they can tell the questioning officer where they got the bike from without descending into an incoherent panicking mess

I don't think you've thought this through.

a) In the circumstances I described in my original post - absolutely. I think it would be entirely reasonable for the police to stop and question those lads.

b) Police use a technique known as questioning to help them establish facts and the liklihood that someone is up to no good - again I dont think it would be unreasonable to ask the person questions.

sarajoy

What're police for if not to act when something looks suspicious?

Agreed, isolated cases will not be theft, but a valid bike owner or borrower.

But four lads all at once who may have been mildly suspicious on their own suddenly becomes very suspicious. I'm with mrc1.

rjsterry

DDD, you probably look a little more 'at home' on your Kuota, even with the trainers and hoodie, than a kid who can barely straddle the top tube, and rides with the arches of his feet on the pedals. I doubt you pull wheelies on it either, or leave it on the floor outside an off license.

EDIT: Oops, took too long to press Submit.

Still stands though.

tailwindhome

This is my last post on this topic as it has all the hallmarks of 12 pages of bile then a lockout


There is a line between the police acting on a reasonable suspicion and police acting on prejudice and stereotype.

In the OP I believe it would have been perfectly reasonable for police to have a word

One last thought, had these lads been riding a Trikadoo would it have been reasonable to have a word?

desweller

But what are they going to achieve? If the police pull me over on my bike when I'm looking a scruffy, and they ask me where I got it from, I'm gonna say, 'I bought it from my cousin' - which happens to be true, but might not be a million miles from what one of those kids might say.

The police require evidence to take action. Unless the questioning is going to turn up some evidence, on the basis of which arrests can be made, there's not much point doing it is there?