How do we improve cycling standards?

SuperBOB

On my commute home, in the traffic - I get overtaken by more than a dozen cyclists running red lights. I then will go straight past them within a few moments.

I never make a comment, or show my frustration. Should I be?

Anyone else have a way of letting people know you don't think its acceptable, without making the situation worse?

asprilla

Have you ever tried telling someone they are driving badly? No matter how you approach it you'll get the same response; some choice words.

sarajoy

I was thinking the other day - while bad cyclists do make drivers more angry - at the end of the day they just learn to get more careful around cyclists who might do any number of stupid things.

This can only be good for safety, no?

Seen cyclists grow in numbers now the weather is improving - I'm not sure it's possible to drive anywhere now without coming across at least one or two - and of course many more at commuting times.

pastryboy

Unless they cause me to have to take any sort of action I just get on with my journey.

rhext

Might as well ask 'how do we stop motorists from speeding?'

First step is for us to decide 'as a society' that it's important enough to fix. Then embark on a combined package of enforcement and communication to make it clear to people what the downsides are (whatever they may be).

Trouble is that 'as a society' we've probably got better things to worry about. If I had £1,000 to spend would I be better spending that on stopping cyclists jumping red lights, or stopping motorists from speeding? As a cycling community, we could probably do some stuff about communication (posters, adverts etc). But I'm not sure how many people we'd reach and how many of them would take any notice.

Canny Jock

sarajoy wrote:

I was thinking the other day - while bad cyclists do make drivers more angry - at the end of the day they just learn to get more careful around cyclists who might do any number of stupid things.

This can only be good for safety, no?

Not sure I agree with your second point, more with the first - if all cyclists behaved sensibly I think some drivers would be more courteous. How can we expect better driving standards if many cyclists ignore the rules of the road?

It does really annoy me seeing people go through red lights, butt I think the only thing that may change it is for there to be more RLJ patrols.

Aidy

Canny Jock wrote:

sarajoy wrote:

I was thinking the other day - while bad cyclists do make drivers more angry - at the end of the day they just learn to get more careful around cyclists who might do any number of stupid things.

This can only be good for safety, no?

Not sure I agree with your second point, more with the first - if all cyclists behaved sensibly I think some drivers would be more courteous. How can we expect better driving standards if many cyclists ignore the rules of the road?

It does really annoy me seeing people go through red lights, butt I think the only thing that may change it is for there to be more RLJ patrols.

I sort of agree with Sara - more cyclists on the roads are better, regardless of how they behave.

I don't see how RLJ patrols will help, people will just get better at spotting them.
It's not like speed cameras stop speeding at anything other than the points where they're present.

The whole concept of RLJ patrols is kinda offensive too. It's not like they go after people stopped in cycle boxes.

I had a word with a taxi driver who pulled into a cycle box rather sharply alongside me this morning, he said he was quite aware he'd just broken the law, and didn't care.
He then went and did it at the next set of lights, too.

bearfraser

Lets all cycle on the pavement , problem cured.

Headhuunter

rhext wrote:

Might as well ask 'how do we stop motorists from speeding?'

First step is for us to decide 'as a society' that it's important enough to fix. Then embark on a combined package of enforcement and communication to make it clear to people what the downsides are (whatever they may be).

Trouble is that 'as a society' we've probably got better things to worry about. If I had £1,000 to spend would I be better spending that on stopping cyclists jumping red lights, or stopping motorists from speeding? As a cycling community, we could probably do some stuff about communication (posters, adverts etc). But I'm not sure how many people we'd reach and how many of them would take any notice.

I know where I'd want my money invested. Far more danger from 2 tonnes+ of speeding metal and glass with driver potentially on his mobile, than a cyclist RLJ-ing... There's a lot of panic and bluster around RLJ-ing but in most cases the RLJer him or herself is most at risk.

Aidy

Headhuunter wrote:

rhext wrote:

Might as well ask 'how do we stop motorists from speeding?'

First step is for us to decide 'as a society' that it's important enough to fix. Then embark on a combined package of enforcement and communication to make it clear to people what the downsides are (whatever they may be).

Trouble is that 'as a society' we've probably got better things to worry about. If I had £1,000 to spend would I be better spending that on stopping cyclists jumping red lights, or stopping motorists from speeding? As a cycling community, we could probably do some stuff about communication (posters, adverts etc). But I'm not sure how many people we'd reach and how many of them would take any notice.

I know where I'd want my money invested. Far more danger from 2 tonnes+ of speeding metal and glass with driver potentially on his mobile, than a cyclist RLJ-ing... There's a lot of panic and bluster around RLJ-ing but in most cases the RLJer him or herself is most at risk.

Completely agree.

notsoblue

pastryboy wrote:

Unless they cause me to have to take any sort of action I just get on with my journey.

+1 I don't understand this whole "Other cyclists' bad behaviour makes drivers treat me badly" attitude that many people seem to have.

bornagainroadie

Isn't part of the problem a lack of understanding between vehicle drivers and cyclists? In general I would say most cyclists are also car drivers(*) but there is a much bigger pool of people who drive and dont cycle.

What annoys me about RLJ is that its against the law. By proceding through a red light you demonstrate your lack of respect for the rules. Agree with them or not they are what they are. If you were driving a car you wouldn't do it. By doing this you help create a bad impression of cyclists which persists. People wont sit down the pub and comment on how all the cyclists obeyed the law, they may talk about all the effing cyclists that RLJ.

None of the above condones the deliberate behaviour of some drivers but in truth we all make mistakes.

Nick

(*) Here in Cambridge that may not be true as most of the thousands of students charging round the city on bikes have probably never driven a car. I also appreciate that Cambridge isnt London and things are different there.

Headhuunter

BornAgainRoadie wrote:

Isn't part of the problem a lack of understanding between vehicle drivers and cyclists? In general I would say most cyclists are also car drivers(*) but there is a much bigger pool of people who drive and dont cycle.

What annoys me about RLJ is that its against the law. By proceding through a red light you demonstrate your lack of respect for the rules. Agree with them or not they are what they are. If you were driving a car you wouldn't do it. By doing this you help create a bad impression of cyclists which persists. People wont sit down the pub and comment on how all the cyclists obeyed the law, they may talk about all the effing cyclists that RLJ.

None of the above condones the deliberate behaviour of some drivers but in truth we all make mistakes.

Nick

(*) Here in Cambridge that may not be true as most of the thousands of students charging round the city on bikes have probably never driven a car. I also appreciate that Cambridge isnt London and things are different there.

I find it quite atrange that somehow cyclists MUST at ALL TIMES stick to the rules for fear of offending the high and mighty car driver, yet you dismiss the "deliberate behaviour of some drivers" with the comment "we all make mistakes".... Seems to me the balance needs redressing slightly.

Speeding drivers, drivers on phones, drivers in ASL boxes etc etc pose far more danger to pedestrians and cyclists than RLJ-ing cyclists. RLJ-ing if done without care and attention does p*ss people off but it generally doesn't cause death and maiming.

DonDaddyD

Lead by example.

I think every road user shares a responsibility to ensure road safety.

wgwarburton

Headhuunter wrote:

...I find it quite atrange that somehow cyclists MUST at ALL TIMES stick to the rules for fear of offending the high and mighty car driver, yet you dismiss the "deliberate behaviour of some drivers" with the comment "we all make mistakes".... Seems to me the balance needs redressing slightly.

We're the minority. The perception is that we are wierdos who get in the way. Antisocial behavior doesn't help.

Speeding drivers, drivers on phones, drivers in ASL boxes etc etc pose far more danger to pedestrians and cyclists than RLJ-ing cyclists. RLJ-ing if done without care and attention does p*ss people off but it generally doesn't cause death and maiming.

Speeding generally doesn't cause death and maiming, either, but that's not the point.

There's a particular psychological issue going on here- It is irrationally and disproportionately irritating when you are sitting waiting at a light and someone illegally and often antisocially, jumps the queue. The unfairness of it really gets to people and they get frustrated and often angry.

The danger factor is a red herring. It's not the risk that winds people up it's the feeling that they are being taken for a mug by some scofflaw who treats their respect for the law with disdain.

Cheers,
W.

bornagainroadie

I'm not asking you to make any concessions to car drivers. I'm simply asking you not to break the law. In my case I believe that this may help to create some goodwill between myself and other road users. Is there some reason that cyclists should be above the law?

I dont condone any of the things you listed, they are all illegal but as an individual there is nothing I can do to influence that behaviour. All I can do is make sure I'm not breaking the law so that if the police happen along at the right time their attention is on the vehicles and not me. Which presumably helps "us" in the long run.

Headhuunter

WGWarburton wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

...I find it quite atrange that somehow cyclists MUST at ALL TIMES stick to the rules for fear of offending the high and mighty car driver, yet you dismiss the "deliberate behaviour of some drivers" with the comment "we all make mistakes".... Seems to me the balance needs redressing slightly.

We're the minority. The perception is that we are wierdos who get in the way. Antisocial behavior doesn't help.

Speeding drivers, drivers on phones, drivers in ASL boxes etc etc pose far more danger to pedestrians and cyclists than RLJ-ing cyclists. RLJ-ing if done without care and attention does p*ss people off but it generally doesn't cause death and maiming.

Speeding generally doesn't cause death and maiming, either, but that's not the point.

There's a particular psychological issue going on here- It is irrationally and disproportionately irritating when you are sitting waiting at a light and someone illegally and often antisocially, jumps the queue. The unfairness of it really gets to people and they get frustrated and often angry.

The danger factor is a red herring. It's not the risk that winds people up it's the feeling that they are being taken for a mug by some scofflaw who treats their respect for the law with disdain.

Cheers,
W.

Often at peak times in London in the summer I think the number of cyclists may almost exceed the number of cars on some roads, but that's besides the point. I don't see why we, as cyclists, somehow have to prove that we should be allowed to use the road by being on our best behaviour at all times, yet illegal and antisocial behaviour from motorists is somehow accepted and ignored, whether or not it causes damage or injury. Cyclists have as much right to the road as motorists do and I don't feel the need to play by the rules simply because drivers might get a bit frustrated. I may play by the rules if someone could actually prove that RLJ-ing is a huge danger to everyone on the road, but I don't believe it is.

DonDaddyD

Heady, two wrongs don't make a right.

We, as cyclist should behave properly on the road. Motorists should also and their actions shouldn't be overlooked.

But they can be treated as two seperate issues.

"Just because motorists don't behave" Isn't an excuse for cyclist not to as well.

itsbruce

DonDaddyD wrote:

Lead by example.

I think every road user shares a responsibility to ensure road safety.

+1. And the badly behaved cyclists really don't do us any favours; however many bad drivers there are out there (and this is something that some people on this forum overstate), RLJers are really, really visible and aggravate many people.

Personally, I now make "wanker" gestures at every RLJer who goes past me. Obviously, this makes a lot of difference. (It does amuse the drivers waiting with me at the lights).

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Heady, two wrongs don't make a right.

We, as cyclist should behave properly on the road. Motorists should also and their actions shouldn't be overlooked.

But they can be treated as two seperate issues.

"Just because motorists don't behave" Isn't an excuse for cyclist not to as well.

That's true, I accept that. What I don't understand is when people essentially say that we as cyclists need to be on our best behaviour on the road or we might risk angering car drivers and after all they are the majority so somehow have superiority.... Majority, minority, it makes no difference.... As you say, we ALL need to be on our best behaviour

WesternWay

DonDaddyD wrote:

Lead by example.

I think every road user shares a responsibility to ensure road safety.

+1

Bikerbaboon

Headhuunter wrote:

I may play by the rules if someone could actually prove that RLJ-ing is a huge danger to everyone on the road, but I don't believe it is.

done just replace the car with you on hte bike and see the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5w7E2HyOEs
http://www.break.com/index/car-blows-re ... biker.html
http://paultan.org/2006/06/26/luckiest- ... ash-video/

all from some one going though a red light when they though it was safe.

People driveing hardly look for a bike when they are over takeing or pulling out from a side road they shure as hell are not looking for one when they are going though a green light.
Crashes happen when people dont follow the highway code. If you are not following the highway code when you are out on your bike you are increasing the risk of haveing a crash.

Trust me getting hit by a car doing 30mph hurts alot and thats if you are lucky.

Clever Pun

BornAgainRoadie wrote:

Isn't part of the problem a lack of understanding between vehicle drivers and cyclists? In general I would say most cyclists are also car drivers(*) but there is a much bigger pool of people who drive and dont cycle.

What annoys me about RLJ is that its against the law. By proceding through a red light you demonstrate your lack of respect for the rules. Agree with them or not they are what they are. If you were driving a car you wouldn't do it. By doing this you help create a bad impression of cyclists which persists. People wont sit down the pub and comment on how all the cyclists obeyed the law, they may talk about all the effing cyclists that RLJ.

None of the above condones the deliberate behaviour of some drivers but in truth we all make mistakes.

Nick

Cars rlj quite a bit... amber means gun it and just turned red mean phew made it... certainly in london and in fairness it happens a lot less in more rural areas where people don't have places to be right now!.

bails87

Headhuunter
I think people are saying that everyone on the roads should be on their best behaviour. But this happens to be a group of cyclists, so obviously the message is skewed towards that.

Porgy

notsoblue wrote:

pastryboy wrote:

Unless they cause me to have to take any sort of action I just get on with my journey.

+1 I don't understand this whole "Other cyclists' bad behaviour makes drivers treat me badly" attitude that many people seem to have.

+1 Nor me

WesternWay

Clever Pun wrote:

Cars rlj quite a bit

To nothing like the same extent as cyclists though... We as a group have an appalling standard of road use. Do we kill many people through our rubbish standards? No, of course not, but I don't really think that that is the point.

This debate always comes down to the same thing though.

Who are more dangerous, cyclists or motorists? motorists obviously
Who has the worse standard of road use? I reckon cyclists
Does the former mean that the latter does not matter? I think not

Porgy

BornAgainRoadie wrote:

By proceding through a red light you demonstrate your lack of respect for the rules..

Oooh nooo!!

If that's all it was I'd be RLJing all day -

to me it's about safety and courtesy. We shouldn't do it if it's hazardous to ourselves or dangerous to others.

We also shouldn't do it if the end result is we get in the way of others who are following the correct procedure - ie, proceeding on green. Beyond that I ahve no problem with RLJers - except for the ones I have to KEEP OVERTAKING!

Headhuunter

Bikerbaboon wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I may play by the rules if someone could actually prove that RLJ-ing is a huge danger to everyone on the road, but I don't believe it is.

done just replace the car with you on hte bike and see the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5w7E2HyOEs
http://www.break.com/index/car-blows-re ... biker.html
http://paultan.org/2006/06/26/luckiest- ... ash-video/

all from some one going though a red light when they though it was safe.

People driveing hardly look for a bike when they are over takeing or pulling out from a side road they shure as hell are not looking for one when they are going though a green light.
Crashes happen when people dont follow the highway code. If you are not following the highway code when you are out on your bike you are increasing the risk of haveing a crash.

Trust me getting hit by a car doing 30mph hurts alot and thats if you are lucky.

But if you replace the car with a bike in those situations the cyclist would still come off worse. As I said, there's a lot of emphasis on RLJ-ing, yet a lot of acceptance of "mistakes" by motorists, yet the latter causes more death and injury.

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Heady, two wrongs don't make a right.

We, as cyclist should behave properly on the road. Motorists should also and their actions shouldn't be overlooked.

But they can be treated as two seperate issues.

"Just because motorists don't behave" Isn't an excuse for cyclist not to as well.

That's true, I accept that. What I don't understand is when people essentially say that we as cyclists need to be on our best behaviour on the road or we might risk angering car drivers and after all they are the majority so somehow have superiority.... Majority, minority, it makes no difference.... As you say, we ALL need to be on our best behaviour

I agree, I realised something last week (maybe the week before) I could do my journey a lot quicker and still observed the rules.

I don't not because I don't want to anger other motorists but because I place importance in upholding safety.

And to be completely honest I've RLJed or passed the crossing but not the junction when i've felt its the safest option.

rhext

And here was me thinking the question was how to improve standards rather than whether RLJ was acceptable behaviour or not.

Is it acceptable? Probably not!

Could we reduce it? Yes!

What priority should society place on reducing it? Hmm, that's the killer for me, because the answer from my point of view is 'not much'! Which is pretty much what's happening.

DonDaddyD

OK to improve standards

You educate people.

You provide better roads, more ASL's and more means of explaning road laws, regulations and do's and don'ts.

Then you put in place a system to monitor, regulate and enforce these laws, regualtions and do's and don'ts.