Liquigas Blood Dopers Still?

TheSommelier
TheSommelier Posts: 2
edited May 2010 in Pro race
Nibs, Basso and Co...clean...?
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Comments

  • Langman
    Langman Posts: 178
    I think they are up to something, but doubt the major stars will be caught.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Weight of historical evidence says dirty. Why should we believe otherwise?
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • gazmercer
    gazmercer Posts: 12
    And even if they are clean, nobody will believe it anyway
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    I've no idea, as have most of you, but Sassi, who's Basso's coach, has faith in him.

    It's hardly surprising that an Italian team is ensuring that it's A team is in form for the biggest race on the Italian calendar though is it?
  • Dgh
    Dgh Posts: 180
    The fact that Basso is with Sassi points to him being clean, but being caught once, and (even more so) the nature of his "confession", mean that there will be doubt.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    I'm sure Basso is aware of that, hence why he publishes his blood values regularly. There's not much more he can do.

    Personally I don't buy this notion that Liguigas have been overly strong in this race. They've been very selective in when they ride hard and have targeted those stages where they can put Basso, and Nibali to a lesser extent, in a position where he can gain time on his rivals. They certainly have been USPS-esque in towing the entire peleton around Italy for three weeks.
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Always doubt, not just about Leaky though, how can anyone really think deep down that any rider is entirely free from doping?

    I really want to believe Evans, Wiggins, Gilbert and most of the French amongst others are 100% clean, but, who really knows.

    I find it hard to place any real faith in Basso, Vino, and if I'm being honest and at the risk of getting taken to task Bertie and the Schleck's too.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    dougzz wrote:
    Always doubt, not just about Leaky though, how can anyone really think deep down that any rider is entirely free from doping?

    I really want to believe Evans, Wiggins, Gilbert and most of the French amongst others are 100% clean, but, who really knows.

    I find it hard to place any real faith in Basso, Vino, and if I'm being honest and at the risk of getting taken to task Bertie and the Schleck's too.


    Evans, Moncoutie, Pinotti, most of the Garmin team, the majority of the Cervelo and Sky teams I'd be fairly certain* of. Basso I believe is clean, but I have more reservations, given his history.




    * as certain as an internet forummer can be having absolutely no view other than what's in the media and what I can observe on the boob tube.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    andyp wrote:
    I've no idea, as have most of you, but Sassi, who's Basso's coach, has faith in him.

    Well, in the words of Mandy Rice-Davis, he would say that, wouldn't he?

    I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt til Basso cruised off up the Mortirolo 8 seconds quicker than in 2006.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    I don't think you can compare stages as simplistically as that. The 2006 Giro stage over the Mortirolo was an absolute brute, covering the Tonale then the Gavia before the Mortirolo. This year they did much less climbing before reaching it so that is a factor.

    The VAM figues being bandied around suggest he's producing around 6 w/kg which is within the limits of what should be humanely possible.

    It's all conjecture though, I don't know if Basso is clean or not, but I can't tell he definitively is either way from watching him on television.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Who cares?

    Liquigas have really played a very big part in making this an excellent and thoroughly enjoyable Giro, one of the best in my memory.
    _
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    DaveyL wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    I've no idea, as have most of you, but Sassi, who's Basso's coach, has faith in him.

    Well, in the words of Mandy Rice-Davis, he would say that, wouldn't he?

    I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt til Basso cruised off up the Mortirolo 8 seconds quicker than in 2006.

    I'm yet to see that confirmed through a reliable link. Anybody have one?
    I'm asking, because what originally was twittered onto the internet was 6 seconds.
    Now I've seen this 8 seconds in several forum posts.

    There are also other factors, some of which have already been posted, that clearly would effect timings.

    However, his VAM on the MR was 0.4 higher, or there abouts, than on the Zoncolan......
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    andyp wrote:
    I don't think you can compare stages as simplistically as that. The 2006 Giro stage over the Mortirolo was an absolute brute, covering the Tonale then the Gavia before the Mortirolo. This year they did much less climbing before reaching it so that is a factor.

    The VAM figues being bandied around suggest he's producing around 6 w/kg which is within the limits of what should be humanely possible.

    It's all conjecture though, I don't know if Basso is clean or not, but I can't tell he definitively is either way from watching him on television.

    I can't tell either, but I am not prepared to give them a free pass just because Aldo Sassi says so. That is ludicrous given the way some other riders are put under the microscope on here, and given Basso''s "Well, I don't need to own up as the fans already know the truth". Well, gee Ivan, thanks for pointing out we're not idiots who didn't buy your "only planning to dope" in the first place.

    Rant over...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    I tend to agree Davey, anyone who thinks Basso didn't dope is naive and his subsequent stance on it is pretty pathetic.

    Since his return though he has at least made efforts to demonstrate that is doing it clean, unlike many of his peers.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    I suppose this thread was inevitable

    going with the maybes..

    LIQ did temper there efforts and they couldn't actual nullify attacks al la postal's circa 2004 style... (would they have fallen too pieces on the gavia if scarponi and evans had a go is a question we will never know the answer too)

    Basso probably clean i guess but should speak out more about what he did and how it was done blah dee blah dee blah ad tedium

    I find Sylvester hard to believe in but that may be just be part of my cynical all round paranoia


    glen close doesnt help their case
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    if none of you amateur sherlocks cant watch a race, any race, without suspecting that the competitors are up to all sorts perhaps you should watch another sport, after all team ingurland are on itv, those nice men in their racing cars are on bbc1 and theres tennis on eurosport 1

    after all those sports are all clean arent they?
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    fast as fupp wrote:
    if none of you amateur sherlocks cant watch a race, any race, without suspecting that the competitors are up to all sorts perhaps you should watch another sport, after all team ingurland are on itv, those nice men in their racing cars are on bbc1 and theres tennis on eurosport 1

    after all those sports are all clean arent they?

    perhaps you shouldn't visit doping threads if it is something you find distasteful.. unless you dont and enjoy pitching in with a comment or two... But that would make your thinking rather weird...no?

    not that there is anything wrong with that... You must have felt moved enough to post this


    IF your going to take us all to task .???????

    still the world is made of many people
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    maybe its just all you amateur sleuths who are that bothered- there was a distinct absence of deerstalker hats and pipes showing in the thousands that have just cheered basso to victory
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    fast as fupp wrote:
    maybe its just all you amateur sleuths who are that bothered- there was a distinct absence of deerstalker hats and pipes showing in the thousands that have just cheered basso to victory

    whooooooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    bulb
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    Those who are looking to suggest Basso is doped because of his times up the Mortirolo, i suggest you look at the comparable time of riders up the Plan De Corones in 2008 and those this year.

    5 riders went sub 41 mins in 2006, the winning time this year was 41:28. Those 5 include Pellizotti, Sella and Ricco.

    You can take many things from it. Just seems interesting to me.
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    I don't know whether they are or not, but there are two things I do know.

    1. Aldo Sassi has a spotless reputation
    2. Ivan Basso does more to show he is clean than any other cyclist.

    There are counter arguments to these statements, but I feel I can trust Basso v2.0.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    the question is not solely focused on Basso
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • fast as fupp
    fast as fupp Posts: 2,277
    mididoctors wrote:
    the question is not solely focused on Basso

    best give the uci a call, mate, and inform them of your findings
    'dont forget lads, one evertonian is worth twenty kopites'
  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    I think looking at Basso is out of place, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pretty clean, as is Nibali, what was surprising that in stages where no other team managed to even have 2 riders still protecting their GC guy (Arroyo, Porte, Evans, Sastre) late into the stage Liquigas still had 5-7 guys actually working on the front.

    The domestiques are the more surprising performances than the top guys.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    jibberjim wrote:
    I think looking at Basso is out of place, I wouldn't be surprised if he was pretty clean, as is Nibali, what was surprising that in stages where no other team managed to even have 2 riders still protecting their GC guy (Arroyo, Porte, Evans, Sastre) late into the stage Liquigas still had 5-7 guys actually working on the front.

    The domestiques are the more surprising performances than the top guys.

    Pretty much all of those teams you mention had sent second string squads to the Giro. Is it any surprise that they were lacking in numbers against Liquigas' best squad?
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    It's not uncommon for the leading squad to have a full squad, riders know they have a job to do and don't take risks, they stay at the front of the bunch and more.

    But ultimately, for this thread, we can read into clues what we want. Some will look at the times and wattages and leap to conclusions when the answer is most of us don't know. But forums are for guessing!
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Aldo Sassi "What today is doping, in that period, was science." It's interesting that Sassi - who ran the Mapei team that had their sponsorship pulled when systematic team doping surfaced, who trained with Ferrari and was part of the team that blood doped Moser to the hour record - is accepted to be beyond reproach. Fair enough, I'm sure he is the 'anti-Ferrari' but it's interesting that he came from an identical background - just shows how you can reject it, I suppose.

    At least we haven't had 9 men sprinting up mountains day after day after day - if Liquigas are doping (and I'd probably err on the side of 'doing the maximum allowable under the passport') then at least it's not quite as cynical as some :lol:
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    What a surprise, that you have to make a reference to you-know-who.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Sorry, andyp already drew the USPS allusion at the beginning of the thread so I'm just a Johnny come lately with that inference :wink:

    Would be much more interested in your thoughts about Sassi, particularly since I was supporting your contention that just because Sassi says Basso is clean, why should that be taken at face value?

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