Spot of legal advice please

incog24

Bit of an incident with a transit van today whilst out training. I'm quite keen something gets done, but I'm aware its easy to get fobbed off by the police so it'd be good to know what my rights are.

Sooo. There were 3 of us riding single file up a hill through Crook (County Durham), when a white van drove along side and the passenger attempted to put a piece of doweling (60cm long, 1cm diameter ish) through each of our wheels. I was riding at the back so heard it hit my spokes, then it hit my leg, then he had a go at my front wheel. Fortunately he failed. He then missed the second guy in line, and repeatedly attempted to stick it into the front guys wheel. Thankfully he failed again, dropped the dowel, shouted abuse, then drove off up the road.

Needless to say we were a bit shaken, so we stopped and wrote down the plate. We then flagged down a passing police van and reported it and carried on our way. A bit further on we spotted them parked up beside the road. We both recognised each other, they shouted abuse at us, and I shouted back we'd reported them to the police. We carried on our way, and about a mile up the road they passed us again, and tipped a bottle of liquid over us all (they managed to get all of us). I'm not sure what it was, but it was definitely yellowish...

Thankfully no one got hurt in any of this, but it could have been bad. If they'd got that wood into any of our wheels then we could have easily come down hard on the curb, or worse, come down under the van. Its scary to think that people would do something so premeditated.

I've made an official report, and I've got an interview booked for tomorrow, but they weren't massively keen on pursuing it as apparently the van is from outside the area.

What can I push them for here? It could have been so much worse and I'd like to get them off the road if possible. The punishments given out for when people actually do get hurt are so derisory I'd rather pre-empt these idiots actually ever doing something.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

ScaldedCat

Surely having noxious fluids poured over you is assault and being hit on the leg by a stick is assault.

The police should have to do SOMETHING.


PersonallyI think maliciously trying to fetch someone off their bike especially on a public highway from a large and powerful vehicle should be classed as attempted murder or at least a very serious assault.

ratsbeyfus

That sounds awful! I can't give legal advice, but you should really make sure the police follow this up.

I've made an official report, and I've got an interview booked for tomorrow, but they weren't massively keen on pursuing it as apparently the van is from outside the area.

This sounds like the cops have been watching the Dukes of Hazard...

robbiedont

Good to hear you're ok. Just make sure you press the police to do something!

Frank the tank

Unfortunately I can't give any advice but you must persue it.

I would bet they'll endevour to fob you off because no one was injured and there isn't an R in the month.

Hope I'm wrong but I'm very sceptical about the effort the feds will put into this.You have the reg so they should be able to take some action, don't hold ya breath though.

Please keep us all posted mate.

nitesight

Lets not be down on the ol Bill yet eh? They have you in for an interview tomorrow and when you explain this to them in full, especially the risk of harm that you were put under you maybe surprised at the response. I say this because if you note the replies before me only one moans about the idiot that attacked you and most just moan about the police!

So before some more on here start there are offences there. It's corroborated as there were three of you so it was witnessed, in short you have a solid complaint.

If the van comes from another county then it makes things trickier so far as completing the enquiries but the investigation is the responsibility of the force where the crime occurred so that isn't an issue. As i've said people always blame the police when it's actually the law itself that is weak in this area so don't expect prison sentences for those involved. I would suggest that as the vehicle itself wasn't used against you driving offences don't apply, I aybe wrong. It's the idiot inside that needs to be dealt with and unless it was a left hand drive car this would be the passenger. If the driver refuses to name the passengers then there is little in law to force him to do so. If you keep pushing for something to be done they will do their best but it won't be as easy as common sense would expect. The police charter ensures you have a right for something to be done.

This was a serious incident and you need to press to the officer the potential for harm to you and your mates. The officer may not be a cyclist so it doesn't hurt to point out what would have happened if you'd struck the curb or gone under the van or a following vehicle.

Work with the police and see how you get on, don't go in there with an attitude that some are showing here that they won't be interested. After all would you want to bend over backwards for someone that assumes you won't? That's just human nature isn't it.

Let the rants begin!!

Good luck. They guy was a dangerous idiot and should be stopped. Glad you and your mates were unharmed.

incog24

Thanks nitesight that explains lots of stuff, I wasn't sure how much the area would effect it. So far the police have been really helpful, and on previous occasions they've been great too (cycling rta). Hopefully they'll follow it up and at least get someone to drop round for a chat.

I still don't understand why someone would find it fun to do that. Worrying!

robbiedont

nitesight wrote:

Lets not be down on the ol Bill yet eh?

A lot of it might be down to our previous experiences though. But you're right, best stay positive

nitesight

I know. I've never understood this blind hatred of cyclists by some. I just don't get it at all. I'm sure your idiot stick wielder didn't want to actually kill you, lets face it if he wanted to there are more efficient ways! It's just shocking how some people can have such a lack of consideration for others and the potential outcome of their actions.

I can't abide people like that!

Just wanted to ensure the deserved annoyance and anger was being directed in the right direction. Namely Mr McPokeystick and not the "feds" etc.

Genuinely glad your all in one piece.

Scrumple

Simple one this:

the stick and liquid amount to offensive weapons.
the attempt to knock you off the bike is a clear attempt assault... (ABH?)
the attempt to knock you off also amounts to attempt criminal damage, and you could even argue the stick is possessing an item with intent to commit criminal damage.
the liquid is assault/damage.
the whole thing adds up to a public order offence, possibly.

Plenty to go on there, and the exact offences can be decided later, but well enough to go out arresting folk.

As for the cops, they have a car, and witnesses, and it aint hard. Go see the driver, who may even be responsible for careless driving if he was affected. Even if the car is nicked they will seize it for fingerprints and then you could be asked to go to an ID viewing should suspects arise. The driver could be argued as an accomplice, but this depends on if there was any in inciting etc.

MAKE sure they don't fob you off. Point out the above to them if they don't mention it to you.
If they really were trying to cause an accident, then it is quite serious. If it was giggly mischief, with some reciprocal taunting, then not so bad...

dilemna

Given that you had flagged down a passing police vehicle but the intimidation and assault still continued suggests that after this initial reporting the police did bugger all. I wouldn't mince around. Demand to speak with a senior officer of Inspector level. The sort of response you have had from them is disgusting and indicates all that is still wrong with the police.

The liquid that was poured over you if indeed it was pi55 would have forensic value as well as the metal/wooden implements that they held out to try to ram through your wheels to bring you down, if they discarded them on the road at the scene. Frankly there is a lot the police could and should have done at the time which they clearly didn't. Lets hope they make up for it when you go to make your statement.

If there were 3 of you what was preventing you from stopping and kicking the crap out of these idiots?

Time to buy a couple of head cams or at least to get wise and use a camera.

master_grunthos

This sounds very serious, i'm sure the Police will follow it up. If they don't then there's something very wrong.

In my experience in Gloucestershire the Police have taken this type of thing very seriously. I was once threatened by a driver who nearly hit me and they even took a statement and gave him a talking to based on that. The driver had said i should watch out because he'd seen me on my bike before and he would run me down if he saw me again, charming.

Most complaints about bus drivers have been followed up in that the bus company get a call by the police and things actually seem to have improved now that the bus company takes it seriously. The Police actually told me that they would like more reports as most issues don't get reported and without that they don't get the big picture or evidence of repeat offenders.

On issue the club did have though was when a skip lorry drove at us (head on, crossing the line to drive at a group of about 20). The police were very concerned and wanted statements until they found out it was travellers and that they could do nothing as they doubted they'd be able to confirm who was driving. They didn't even want to speak to them at all. I asked if the lorry had tax and insurance and they weren't interested. I carried on to ask what they'd do if we'd been killed and they said they'd have an arrestable offence then so would have to do something.....nice. Some people do seem to beyond the law and i suspect that they know it.

If you report these events by the book and you don't act like a complainer who calls them about every little niggle they will take you seriously.

carrock

If it was a white transit van full of travellers, then nothing will happen as they won't be traced, as the van probably won't be registered to a permanent address.

Only chance you have is if you see the van entering a traveller site- and even then the police will not want to act- to protect the travellers " human rights "

These people tend to operate outside the law, by and large

At least they didnt beat you senseless and nick your bikes

nitesight

As I said - bring on the rants from people who I'm sure are well meaning but don't really know what they are talking about.

Urine having forensic value? :shock: Someone enjoys CSI night on Five don't they?

You can't attempt ABH. It's ACTUAL bodily harm. The attempt aspects are covered in the wording for assault.

I love the Daily Mail Human Rights comment, preciously ignorant.

At the end of the day, the police will do what they can. Which as I said, if not as much as you'd hope maybe more due to inadequencies in the Law and available resources rather than the popular negative opinions expressed by some of the posters above. As the OP said and some have clearly ignored they've been great so far.

Perhaps some should keep their advice to things they know about, like bikes and stuff, rather than making themselves look silly by spouting about things they clearly do not. Especially when it's of no help to the OP.

"indeed it was pi55 would have forensic value" :roll:

awallace

@dilemna

the repsonse may have been poor but so too could it have been sufficient. Without knowing which way the cyclists went and which way the offender(s) went, not knowing what search was made for the offenders its a bit much to call it disgusting and the OP hasnt indicated any of this. I see nobody hear has a pop at NapD about his ability as a police officer or is it just that its easy to bitch when not confronted by anyone?

Plus the timescale this happened over must have been more than a few seconds due to the attempts made against the poster and his mates, therefore the driver is as culpable because he must have slowed for them to achieve this.

Anonymous

nitesight wrote:

As I said - bring on the rants from people who I'm sure are well meaning but don't really know what they are talking about.

Urine having forensic value? :shock: Someone enjoys CSI night on Five don't they?

You can't attempt ABH. It's ACTUAL bodily harm. The attempt aspects are covered in the wording for assault.

I love the Daily Mail Human Rights comment, preciously ignorant.

At the end of the day, the police will do what they can. Which as I said, if not as much as you'd hope maybe more due to inadequencies in the Law and available resources rather than the popular negative opinions expressed by some of the posters above. As the OP said and some have clearly ignored they've been great so far.

Perhaps some should keep their advice to things they know about, like bikes and stuff, rather than making themselves look silly by spouting about things they clearly do not. Especially when it's of no help to the OP.

"indeed it was pi55 would have forensic value" :roll:

You can attempt ABH. You attempt to cause someone actual bodily harm.

You can attempt any indictable offence (one of which ABH is) under the Criminal Attempts act...

Ollieda

adding to NapDs corrections.....all of this amounts to battery. The word assault is thrown around a lot but technically assult is where there is a threat and battery is where there is contact. e.g. if a fella is about to punch you, the whole process of the fist coming towards your face is an assault and when it connects with your face, its then battery. Just to clear things up!

This is a serious matter, much more than the more common situation of throwing bottles / eggs that others have mentioned. These people had an intention to harm you. The police should take this seriously so please everyone leave the police bashing unless they actually fail to take action!

nitesight

Yeah, wasn't going to get into that but I see what I've written isn't clear. My thinking was that a charge for attempt assault/battery would be more likely than attempt ABH considering the account.

Getting an attempt ABH past the CPS is usually fun.......

Anonymous

nitesight wrote:

Yeah, wasn't going to get into that but I see what I've written isn't clear. My thinking was that a charge for attempt assault/battery would be more likely than attempt ABH considering the account.

Getting an attempt ABH past the CPS is usually fun.......

Getting most offences past the CPS is, erm, fun...

ABH is just a 'level' of assault (s.47 of the offences against the person act. It is a possible charge but the most likely offence would be under the public order act or the road traffic act... Or both.

nitesight

Yep. 4A all the way baby! No need to persuade them he'd have lost a tooth or needed stitches if he'd come off.

Frank the tank

"Nitesight" I was basing my comments on my own personal experience and comments others have made on here about theirs.

I have nothing against the police as such, it just seems at times their priorities are wrong.

BTW I wasn't "ranting" I try and avoid doing that on here.

Ollieda

dilemna wrote:

Given that you had flagged down a passing police vehicle but the intimidation and assault still continued suggests that after this initial reporting the police did bugger all. I wouldn't mince around. Demand to speak with a senior officer of Inspector level. The sort of response you have had from them is disgusting and indicates all that is still wrong with the police..

What exactally was the PC that was informed ment to do, I'm sure he would have radioed it in so other PCs nearby where aware but you can't really expect the whole constabulary to go on a massive man hunt as soon as something like this is reported. It's not a case of police not having their priorities sorted, its more a case of situations like this correctly being lower down the list of priorities and we're not happy about it, obviously everyone wants there issue to be number 1....therefore very few people are ever going to be happy. People want more PCs on the beat but then moan about proposed tax increases, it's life!

Hopefully something will be done in this case, we'll just have to wait for incog to let us know

incog24

Thanks for all the advice and details guys! I know way more about it all now than I did before.

My concern is that because it was the passenger that did most of it, it could be difficult to pin it on the driver who is equally as culpable (IMO), especially if it was a work van etc etc. I don't know whether I could provide a positive ID, but you never know. I'll see what the police say later and pass it on. As I said, in previous incidents they've been great so I'm staying positive about it for now.

And @ Dilemna. 3 cyclists wearing cleats vs 2+ guys in a van, I'm not sure we'd stand a chance...And anyway, I'm not that interested in getting into fights! I don't even respond to abuse these days, just wave and smile. Its not worth getting angry, it just spoils my ride!

carrock

Ollieda wrote:

dilemna wrote:

Given that you had flagged down a passing police vehicle but the intimidation and assault still continued suggests that after this initial reporting the police did bugger all. I wouldn't mince around. Demand to speak with a senior officer of Inspector level. The sort of response you have had from them is disgusting and indicates all that is still wrong with the police..

What exactally was the PC that was informed ment to do, I'm sure he would have radioed it in so other PCs nearby where aware but you can't really expect the whole constabulary to go on a massive man hunt as soon as something like this is reported. It's not a case of police not having their priorities sorted, its more a case of situations like this correctly being lower down the list of priorities and we're not happy about it, obviously everyone wants there issue to be number 1....therefore very few people are ever going to be happy. People want more PCs on the beat but then moan about proposed tax increases, it's life!

Hopefully something will be done in this case, we'll just have to wait for incog to let us know

I do support the police, but am also a motorcyclist and am amazed at the resources they can muster to turn up in force at a bike meet and hand out fixed penalties for slightly small number plates and noisy exhausts.

The words " easy pickings" and soft targets " spring to mind

bompington

...as do the words "get a legal number plate" and "fix your exhaust".

Come to thnk of it, I don't agree with fixed penalties for noisy exhausts - hanging would be better.

dilemna

nitesight wrote:

As I said - bring on the rants from people who I'm sure are well meaning but don't really know what they are talking about.

Urine having forensic value? :shock: Someone enjoys CSI night on Five don't they?

You can't attempt ABH. It's ACTUAL bodily harm. The attempt aspects are covered in the wording for assault.

I love the Daily Mail Human Rights comment, preciously ignorant.

At the end of the day, the police will do what they can. Which as I said, if not as much as you'd hope maybe more due to inadequencies in the Law and available resources rather than the popular negative opinions expressed by some of the posters above. As the OP said and some have clearly ignored they've been great so far.

Perhaps some should keep their advice to things they know about, like bikes and stuff, rather than making themselves look silly by spouting about things they clearly do not. Especially when it's of no help to the OP.

"indeed it was pi55 would have forensic value" :roll:

Unlike you who obviously does watch CSI, I got my forensic experience in real life actually working cases. Where did you get yours again? Oh yes, crappy American dramas on C5 :roll: .

I am sure NapD is a very able copper. I make no criticism of him. He is absolutely correct putting you right that ABH and any other indictable offence can be attempted. Where do you get your legal understanding - oh yes CSI. Perhaps you should watch less TV.

My comment that the police response was disgusting was because it actually sounds like it was a nasty incident unless the OP jazzed it up a bit for effect. If the same vehicle was parked a few minutes up the road and as you were passing more abuse was directed at you and a pee like liquid poured over you and there was no sign of the police then I question why, the police you stopped earlier, had not found them as they were just up the road and logically should have been speaking with them or doing so as you passed by. Just going on the info the OP provided. To me this sounds like a moderately serious incident unless the OP wants to tell us otherwise. Having a passenger lean out of a passing vehicle and try to jam something in your wheels is serious, then further abuse you and pour what in all likelihood could be pee over you is even more egregious. Yuk!

dilemna

incog24 wrote:

Thanks for all the advice and details guys! I know way more about it all now than I did before.

My concern is that because it was the passenger that did most of it, it could be difficult to pin it on the driver who is equally as culpable (IMO), especially if it was a work van etc etc. I don't know whether I could provide a positive ID, but you never know. I'll see what the police say later and pass it on. As I said, in previous incidents they've been great so I'm staying positive about it for now.

And @ Dilemna. 3 cyclists wearing cleats vs 2+ guys in a van, I'm not sure we'd stand a chance...And anyway, I'm not that interested in getting into fights! I don't even respond to abuse these days, just wave and smile. Its not worth getting angry, it just spoils my ride!

I don't know. You seem to be taking this incident very casually. Was it as serious as you make out? If it were me I would have been terrified. I would have made it clear to the coppers that happened to pass by, how scared and upset the incident had made me. Given this I would thought it reasonable they would have quickly found the culprits or assisted you asap as I say it sounds terrifying and frankly gross.

Anonymous

It does indeed sound like quite a nasty incident. In fact, it would likely be newsworthy even here in Manchester!

Aggieboy

nitesight wrote:

As I said - bring on the rants from people who I'm sure are well meaning but don't really know what they are talking about.

Urine having forensic value? :shock: Someone enjoys CSI night on Five don't they?

You can't attempt ABH. It's ACTUAL bodily harm. The attempt aspects are covered in the wording for assault.

I love the Daily Mail Human Rights comment, preciously ignorant.

At the end of the day, the police will do what they can. Which as I said, if not as much as you'd hope maybe more due to inadequencies in the Law and available resources rather than the popular negative opinions expressed by some of the posters above. As the OP said and some have clearly ignored they've been great so far.

Perhaps some should keep their advice to things they know about, like bikes and stuff, rather than making themselves look silly by spouting about things they clearly do not. Especially when it's of no help to the OP.

"indeed it was pi55 would have forensic value" :roll:

For your information, Sherlock, although this case wouldn't warrant it, you can obtain a DNA profile from urine. So it does have a forensic value.

incog24

dilemna wrote:

I don't know. You seem to be taking this incident very casually. Was it as serious as you make out? If it were me I would have been terrified. I would have made it clear to the coppers that happened to pass by, how scared and upset the incident had made me. Given this I would thought it reasonable they would have quickly found the culprits or assisted you asap as I say it sounds terrifying and frankly gross.

I'm not taking it casually. I just thought I'd be objective rather than hysterical like some posts on the forum can be! That way people reading it can get an idea of what happened and I'm less likely to get completely flamed. I wouldn't post with my signature if I was posting bull!

Update then. Had a really friendly and sympathetic plain clothes policeman come around and take a statement from me. They'd like to go for assault based on the piss incident, but I'm not sure I could ID the guy unless they were to give me 11 guys with brown hair and one with blond...It might be that my mates got a better look though, so we'll see. If they can't do that, then they'll go for a traffic offence, possibly driving without due care etc etc. There's only one registered driver of the van. Apparently if he refuses to name who was driving then he'll get a 3point penalty and a fine, so at the very least he'll get that. All in all I'm quite happy with that! Hopefully they'll get nailed and not be on the road for sometime, but its reassuring that they'll at least get something.

Another positive experience with Durham/Crook constabulary to offset all the negative police experiences other posters have had!