hardtail saddle height feet

mancjon

Just interested to know how many of the hardtail riders on this forum can touch the floor with both feet, even on tiptoes, when seated in the saddle. Obviously when descending tecchie stuff you might lower your saddle but in normal conditions can you get both feet on the ground or only one ?

I ask because i've just measured my inseam and done a few of the more popular calculations for saddle height and i found my saddle is quite a bit lower than it calculates it should be. I have tried the rough heel on pedal thing but then that doesn't really take into account size of feet etc.

nicklouse

the answer is you should not be able to. if you can your saddle is way too low.

mancjon

the answer is you should not be able to. if you can your saddle is way too low.

Does that pretty much apply to all hardtails ?

If so, no wonder i was finding the hills a bit of a chore :shock:

UncleMonty

I notice while climbing a bitch of a hill ealier this week that my seat was too low (seat clamp was a little loose and the steam had slid down), I moved the seat back up as high as I could and carried on climbing, when I set off again I couldn't believe how much easier it was to peddle - it felt like I'd dropped two gears !

nicklouse

mancjon
well if you can you either have a very low BB height or very long feet if the saddle is the correct height.

have a read http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

I suggest gradually raising your saddle, perhaps half an inch (1 cm) at a time. Each time you raise it, ride the bike. If it doesn't feel noticeably worse to ride, ride it for at least a couple of miles/km.

If it had been too low before, your bike will feel lighter and faster with the new riding position. If raising the saddle improved things, raise it again, and ride it some more. Keep doing this until you reach the point where the saddle is finally too high, then lower it just a bit.

mancjon

Nick

Thanks, had a quick read. I guess i was confused because when i do heel on pedal, straight etc. i can still touch ground with both feet, admittedly on tiptoes but still both feet.

Feet aren't that big, about size 9/10 i think in old measurements

Jon

hard-rider

Apparently your leg should make at 25-30deg angle with the pedal at it's lowest point and your foot on the pedal in the position would would ride in. I read that that give you the most power and efficiency.

mancjon

Apparently your leg should make at 25-30deg angle with the pedal at it's lowest point and your foot on the pedal in the position would would ride in. I read that that give you the most power and efficiency.

Yeah, i read that somewhere but it is kind of hard to get that measurement :?

hard-rider

You can impro a device but will need a second person to help. Get a long (1m) straight rule a protractor and a plumb line. Place the rule along your leg so it's parallel to the bone then drop the plumb from that little bone that sticks out of the side of your knee and read the angle between the rule and plumb with the protractor.

You'll need to make sure that your seat is in the correct position (forward and back on the rails) first so your knee is over the centreline of the pedal spindle before reading the angle.

Bare in mind that these should just be taken as a guide to start from. After that make small adjustments if necessary. I read most people find 25deg or very close to it to be optimum.

sparrowlegs78

I can tippy toe with my saddle at the right height on my Merlin

If goes any higher than this, i can't reach the pedal when it's at the lowest point to hook it back up to the top when I stop.
This is a 19" frame
Caz xx

mancjon

Cheers Caz

Out of interest if you put your heel on the pedal at it lowest point does it actually reach ?

Jon

sparrowlegs78

It does with my 5:10s on with a bit of a bend in the knee not much though, but no bend in the knee in socks...not that i ride in socks lol
Caz xx

hard-rider

I can only just tippy toe and my heel just reaches the pedal with the bike linked in my sig. It's an XL frame.

Happy Harry

Interesting thread. On my Kona, with 100mm forks I can just about reach the ground reliably. But the Whyte has 120mm forks and I toppled over a few times at low speed because I couldn't get my foot down on uneven ground.

I lowered the saddle a bit, got my low-speed confidence back but suffered the consequences. Aching thigh muscles, back-ache and a visit to the osteopath and struggling up hills. It took me a week or two to make the connection, put the saddle back up and immediately got my hill-climbing mojo back.

To allow me to find the ground easier, I've increased the sag on the forks. I don't ride very extreme stuff so I've dropped the air pressure to 70psi which gives a slightly lower ride. It does reduce the amount of active travel on the forks but they haven't bottomed out yet. But importantly, I can (usually) find something solid to put my toe on.

stubs

I have noticed that XC racers dont seem to have there saddles quite so high as they used to a few years back.

There is obviously an ideal saddle to BB height for maximum power but is that ideal for off road riding where we are sliding backwards and forwards and getting out of the saddle a lot more than a road rider. Its a compromise between pedalling efficency and control.

On the road on my HT I have the saddle set at 720mm from the rails to the centre of the BB but off road that is too high the saddle gets in the way when belting along singletrack, bunny hopping and honking up steep stuff out of the saddle.

I do most of my offroad stuff on my bouncer these days and I am seriously considering an adjustable seatpost getting a bit bored having to stop at the top of a drop and bang the post down then forgetting to raise it again at the bottom.

mancjon

I lowered the saddle a bit, got my low-speed confidence back but suffered the consequences. Aching thigh muscles, back-ache and a visit to the osteopath and struggling up hills. It took me a week or two to make the connection, put the saddle back up and immediately got my hill-climbing mojo back.

I know what you mean. It' s tempting to lower the saddle to get more control but not when it knackers your knees, thighs etc. I decided the best thing to do was to learn to trackstand which gives me a lot more confidence at slow speeds.

mancjon

There is obviously an ideal saddle to BB height for maximum power but is that ideal for off road riding where we are sliding backwards and forwards and getting out of the saddle a lot more than a road rider. Its a compromise between pedalling efficency and control.

On the road on my HT I have the saddle set at 720mm from the rails to the centre of the BB but off road that is too high the saddle gets in the way when belting along singletrack, bunny hopping and honking up steep stuff out of the saddle.

Good point. I guess it depends on other factors as well. I'm in my forties which means if i don't get it right my body can suffer quite a bit. Sometimes i do feel that i would like it lower when doing technical stuff and like you say it can be a bit of a pain having to keep readjusting the seat height.

w86h2000

My heels can just reach the pedals where my seat is now. if the seat is any lower than this my knees are in bits after cycling for a short bit. Downhills though I drop the seat down most of the way so I'm not too high up and end up flying over the handlebars.

Happy Harry

mancjon wrote:

I decided the best thing to do was to learn to trackstand which gives me a lot more confidence at slow speeds.

Yes, I think I'll have to practise that a bit. Although it won't help with my usual reason for toppling over. Most of my riding is over bridlepaths on clay soil. In winter the mud is churned up by tractors, land-rovers, cattle and horses. When the clay dries the ruts and potholes are like concrete and when the front meets something it can't climb there's no give and it stops dead. I have to put a foot down but with no time to see where it's going it can quite easily drop into another hole - with me and the bike following close behind

MarkDon

Is there any connection between saddle height & bar height?

just my saddle is up and my new bars have a shorter steerer and are quite low, should i be thinking about readjusting saddle height?

blister pus

depends if the saddle height is correct for your legs and proper pedalling technique (see nick's posts). If it is then you need to either get a longer steerer or start using a high rise stem or high rise bars, or both, if you really are that low and far forward. you can usually rectify things to get the right cockpit for you.

supersonic

Get a copy of WMB issue 108 if you can - I wrote a four page article on bike fit.

Anonymous

After many many years of MTBing, I still recon that the whole "bike fit" thing is always a compromise of control Vs efficiency on mountain bikes.
A couple of years ago I decided to try riding everywhere standing on the pedals, with the seat right down in the frame. Took some time to get the fitness up, but the end result was great, no more faffing around with lowering saddles for doing big drops, or some DH runs, and no lifting it back up again to ride up long hills.

Obviously this isn;t a solution, just something I thought I'd add to the discussion.

supersonic

Absolutely - I went into a bit of detail about compromising and experimenting.

Anonymous

Sorry sonic, I missed that mag, been spending hideous amounts of money on photography stuff instead!

mancjon

A couple of years ago I decided to try riding everywhere standing on the pedals, with the seat right down in the frame. Took some time to get the fitness up, but the end result was great, no more faffing around with lowering saddles for doing big drops, or some DH runs, and no lifting it back up again to ride up long hills.

You must have been bloody fit after that :shock:

Any negatives on the body ie. knees, back etc.. ?

mancjon

Get a copy of WMB issue 108 if you can - I wrote a four page article on bike fit.

Okay, should have that somewhere so i'll dig it out.

From your experience, as you have a lot, should an average hardtail setup allow you to get both feet on ground even on tiptoes ?

Anonymous

mancjon wrote:

A couple of years ago I decided to try riding everywhere standing on the pedals, with the seat right down in the frame. Took some time to get the fitness up, but the end result was great, no more faffing around with lowering saddles for doing big drops, or some DH runs, and no lifting it back up again to ride up long hills.

You must have been bloody fit after that :shock:

Any negatives on the body ie. knees, back etc.. ?

Not really no. In fact I seemed to suffer less when riding like that than when actually using the saddle. I started out just riding locally, standing the whole way, then after a few days I could manage a good few hours like that.
What surprised me is that making the transition from riding along locally through the docks and around town and stuff, to riding trails like the dragon's back was easy.
There's so much strength in your legs, that once you get the stamina sorted, it doesn't matter whether you're riding uphill or along the flat it makes little or no difference it seems.

It's not a scientific test by any stretch, but certainly curious.
Oh, and it's probably worth mentioning thatI was doing a lot of running around that time as well, which presumably helps leg endurance. I used to run 6 miles about 3 times a week.

supersonic

mancjon wrote:

Get a copy of WMB issue 108 if you can - I wrote a four page article on bike fit.

Okay, should have that somewhere so i'll dig it out.

From your experience, as you have a lot, should an average hardtail setup allow you to get both feet on ground even on tiptoes ?

It is a coincidence if it does. Set the saddle height according to the pedals, not the floor. If your feet touch it may just be a low bottom bracket, big feet etc. They shouldn't have to touch the floor.

Though I remember writing that for beginners or youngsters it can help at the very start just for safety reasons, but you should quickly establish the best height for efficiency.

cee

It is definitely a compromise between efficiency and control...

I think I know where the ideal efficiency height for my saddle is...however, I like to have the saddle between half an inch and an inch lower than that.

I read somewhere that pushing your heals lower than your toes at the bottom of the pedal stroke can even give back some of that efficiency and I try to do this....

Completely unproven and totally based on my very skewed experience, but I reckon it works. I don't notice a loss of efficiency, but definitely notice the extra 'off the back' space I gain.

Again...absolutely no proof or real evidence to back this up.

Happy Harry

Hmm. Back from work now (late shift) and two dry martini cocktails later (that's how I live OK? :roll: ) and I've got a further question on this subject :?

If my correct saddle/pedal setup won't allow my feet to reach the floor, I may have to change the way I do some stuff. No worries - change is good, right?

I usually mount the bike by putting my leg over the back of the saddle and sitting on the seat. How many of you do that? Now after reading this thread my saddle is higher and I'm adapting to putting my leg over the downtube (girly style) and 'standing over' the downtube. I'll bet you all tell me that you've been doing that all the time!

And when you stop, do you remain seated on the saddle and put one foot down or do you drop forward off the saddle and stand on the floor?