Ashenden on microdosing

iainf72

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sport ... ref=sports

Worth a read

I expect some cringe at his honesty but hey ho.

andyp

Interesting article, thanks for sharing it (and not from the Hindustan Times for once ).

If it's that easy to avoid detection via microdosing, how come so many riders are still getting caught using EPO? Carelessness? Or are the testers keeping something from the public domain?

DaveyL

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

No_Ta_Doctor

DaveyL wrote:

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

I like your thinking, but I'm a little more cynical. Though I presume they don't publish their research in open peer reviewed journals I doubt it would be that hard to pay off a lab technician for some inside info.... They're always one step ahead.

That's why I think the Landis allegations are so important, if they do result in taking Armstrong et al down it could help to break the culture of doping. Right now it's all "show me a positive test or shut up". But if there was a bit more fear, a bit more suspicion about...

Tyler\'sTwin

DaveyL wrote:

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

There is one. Google MAIIA EPO.

DaveyL

Tyler\'sTwin wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

There is one. Google MAIIA EPO.

Yeah I read about that a while back. It would be really cool if they sprung it at the Tour.

You do wonder if it's already in use with some labs and behind a lot of these recent epo busts.

paulcuthbert

BikePure have been reading this thread...

http://twitter.com/BikePure

Richrd2205

DaveyL wrote:

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

I can't help agreeing, especially given Ferrari's response. Intriguing!

dave_1

andyp wrote:

Interesting article, thanks for sharing it (and not from the Hindustan Times for once ).

If it's that easy to avoid detection via microdosing, how come so many riders are still getting caught using EPO? Carelessness? Or are the testers keeping something from the public domain?

I had the impression Frei from BMC felt it was easy to evade and so was getting over confident and relaxing too much, hence caught...

Maybe naive, but I kind of believe Basso and Evans are showing some hope of clean racing...so close between them and both appreciably slower than their peers in 2007. Let's see Mortirolo climb times, way down on 1994 times if the past week is anything to go by..which would mean some are not risking it.

donrhummy

Tyler\'sTwin wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Interesting stuff as always from the Ash.

Part of me can't help thinking how cool it would be if this was a bluff and they wheel out a lovely new super-sensitive epo test in the middle of the Tour...

There is one. Google MAIIA EPO.

I did google it and nothing came up. Can you provide a link?

Pokerface

One thing confused me in the article.

It states:

"Based on anecdotal evidence, Ashenden said he thought that cyclists were microdosing EPO only during the spring and fall, when races generally last one or two days, and through the off-season. Police activity, he said, makes it too risky for athletes and teams to travel with vials of EPO during three-week events like the Tour de France.

Ashenden said he thought that transfusions of blood frozen during the off-season remained the doping method of choice during long races."



Basically saying it's too hard/risky to carry small vials of EPO during long races - but somehow transporting bags of frozen blood is easier!?

Or is this just because you don't get arrested for having blood?

Kléber

I didn't understand that point either. My view is that a bag full of blood can boost a rider much more than a microdose, this is why it is more prevalent amongst the cheats.

AidanR

Microdosing, however, appears to increase users’ blood volumes significantly. So although EPO raises users’ overall red blood cell level, its concentration stays constant because blood volume increases.

I appreciate the dangers associated with a higher concentration of red blood cells and its subsequent increase in viscosity, but surely increasing blood volume "significantly" has got to lead to dangerously high blood pressure? Mind you, I assume this has exactly the same effect as blood doping, unless they spin the blood down to obtain a high concentration of red blood cells.

Kléber

AidanR wrote:

but surely increasing blood volume "significantly" has got to lead to dangerously high blood pressure?

Some science research into training at altitude suggests thicker blood is harder to pump and so whilst it carries more oxygen, it is harder to move around. But clearly riders like "Mr 60%" didn't have a problem. One trick is to use various blood thinning products, for example Actovegin.

eh

I think the article is mixed up, Ashenden appears to be talking about drug testing rather than Police raids. Replace Police with Vampiers and it makes sense.

AidanR

Kléber wrote:

AidanR wrote:

but surely increasing blood volume "significantly" has got to lead to dangerously high blood pressure?

Some science research into training at altitude suggests thicker blood is harder to pump and so whilst it carries more oxygen, it is harder to move around. But clearly riders like "Mr 60%" didn't have a problem. One trick is to use various blood thinning products, for example Actovegin.

Yeah, but the point he makes is that the blood isn't thicker, there's just more of it, hence it evades the biological passport which just looks at red cell concentration. I'm no medic or biologist, but presumably the arteries/veins/capillaries of the body can only carry so much blood, and increasing blood volume "significantly" will lead to high blood pressure. Or maybe it doesn't work that way?

iainf72

Blood pressure does go up, but they've found blood pressure drugs in raids before. Also, apparantly the human body is quite clever and sorts itself out quite quickly.

RichN95.

Pokerface wrote:

One thing confused me in the article.

It states:

"Based on anecdotal evidence, Ashenden said he thought that cyclists were microdosing EPO only during the spring and fall, when races generally last one or two days, and through the off-season. Police activity, he said, makes it too risky for athletes and teams to travel with vials of EPO during three-week events like the Tour de France.

Ashenden said he thought that transfusions of blood frozen during the off-season remained the doping method of choice during long races."

Basically saying it's too hard/risky to carry small vials of EPO during long races - but somehow transporting bags of frozen blood is easier!?

Or is this just because you don't get arrested for having blood?

I think his point is that transfusions are typically only done once during the Tour (and probably once before it). To do this only requires a single rendevouz which may take as little as half an hour from the time of the blood arriving to the waste leaving. This, therefore, gives the cops a very small time frame to catch them.

With EPO microdosing, on the other hand, somebody has to traipse round France for three weeks with vials of EPO in his luggage. Plus, he has to get the EPO to the rider at least every other day, thereby building up a suspicious pattern of activity. This makes it easier for observant cops to suspect something is up and gives them more opportunity to make a bust.

term1te

I have bags of blood shipped around Europe for my work. Really quite easy thanks to Fed Ex, UPS, etc. I guess a large insulated box coming out of a brown and gold van at the team hotel wouldn't look too good, but with some ingenuity I don't think it would need to be carried around by the team physio. Likewise a stash of EPO in every overnight town could be planned in advance. I think I've watched too many bad films.

Horse and cow blood by the way, used to feed blood sucking insects.