low bright sun more dangerous than the dark???

wyadvd

like most of us, i drive a car. Today i have to put my hand up to having nearly mown two cyclists down by mistake. They were cycling into the sun and riding in the gutter, right in the shade of some trees. They were totally in visible. I had the sun in my eyes and the reflection of my dash all over the inside of my windscreen. I swerved at the last moment. I had my wife next to me and i said "did you see those cycllists? " she said " what cyclists" (she had shades on!)

I feel vindicated in having the following lights on the back of my bike at all times of the day and night: xposure redeye, mars 4 ON BLINK , cateye holy handgranade on blink and a home brew made of a honda led rear windscreen brake light.
And i dont give a flying f how silly people think i look

jimmypippa

Yes be careful,

However I am not too sure that it needed three identical threads...

:twisted:

prj45

wyadvd wrote:

I had the sun in my eyes and the reflection of my dash all over the inside of my windscreen. I swerved at the last moment.

Fookin well slow down then!

Jebus, it's not difficult!

CiB

prj45 wrote:

wyadvd wrote:

I had the sun in my eyes and the reflection of my dash all over the inside of my windscreen. I swerved at the last moment.

Fookin well slow down then!

Jebus, it's not difficult!

??

Doesn't matter what speed you're doing, if you don't see them you don't see them. It's not reasonable to drive everywhere at 10 mph just in case you miss something.

wyadvd

firstly apologies for the tripple postings.... driving and posting to a forum on yer phone is pretty difficult to do well sorry ( sick joke sorry)

I wish to make clear that the post was not done from the perspective of a motorist critisising cyclists. I am a 150 mile a week bike commuter myself and if you read my other posts you will find im actually quite a militant pro cycling speaker!

I have to reassure prj that the moment my visibility was compromised due to the sun I slowed from 40 to 30 in a 60 zone. the cyclists were still totally invisible. It was only a glimpse of the pedal reflector back from my dipped headlights that allerted me to the fact that there were cyclists in the shadows.

The point of my post was not to critisise cyclists in any way (although some may notice a smug reference to my own policy on rear lights in day time for myself), but to point up that just because the sun is shining brightly does not mean that the cyclist is safe. the bright light by its very nature creates very high contrast. direct sunshine onto the human retina closes the pupils and so normal shadows become total darkness or worse. a large percentage of drivers use dark glasses while driving which can amplify this problem.

prj45

CiB wrote:

Doesn't matter what speed you're doing, if you don't see them you don't see them. It's not reasonable to drive everywhere at 10 mph just in case you miss something.

Not suggesting that, but It's perfectly reasonable to suggest you drive at 10mph if you can barely see anything in front of you!

I assure you, despite the OP's protestations those cyclists were not invisible.

A bloke turned right across in front of me once. His excuse, he couldn't see anything because he was blinded by the sun.

Er....

gaz545

Why where your dipped headlights on during the day?

i joke

prj45

wyadvd wrote:

The point of my post was not to critisise cyclists in any way (although some may notice a smug reference to my own policy on rear lights in day time for myself), but to point up that just because the sun is shining brightly does not mean that the cyclist is safe.

I agree, I'm lit up from the rear on low sun conditions, but let's be clear, when we're doing this it's only to cover somebody else's arse (and by extension your own).

IIRC the driver in this case said he was dazzled by the sun and hence didn't see the cyclist (although I think he was going quite a bit faster than yourself):

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2040 ... s_decision

prj45

CiB wrote:

Doesn't matter what speed you're doing

I'd also take issue with that. Not seeing a cyclist at 30mph if you're blinded by the sun is very different from not seeing them at 60mph if you're blinded by the sun.

davis

wyadvd wrote:

The point of my post was not to critisise cyclists in any way (although some may notice a smug reference to my own policy on rear lights in day time for myself), but to point up that just because the sun is shining brightly does not mean that the cyclist is safe. the bright light by its very nature creates very high contrast. direct sunshine onto the human retina closes the pupils and so normal shadows become total darkness or worse. a large percentage of drivers use dark glasses while driving which can amplify this problem.

+1

The human eye can only cope with certain a dynamic range of light. That means you can't see darker things well when your eyes are adjusted to the sun, or vice-versa. This effect increases as you get older[*] (i.e. your eyes get worse at this).

We all forget this, whether we're driving, walking, or cycling. We all make assumptions based on what we expect. I suspect many cyclists have not seen potholes when coming from sunlight to shade, for example.

You've made me finally decide to stick a very bright rear light on my good weather bike which I've been procrastinating about for ages for exactly the reasons you've cited, so thanks.


P.S. The sunglasses usually make your sight better. They reduce the apparent dynamic range, and your eyes are better around the midtones (I can't find a reference for that, but I seem to remember reading something about it)

*: Not strictly true, if you're interested. Basically your eyes adjust more slowly as you age.


Disclaimer: I'm just an interested layman, so the above might be twaddle.

Edit: I've got the Exposure RedEye on my commuter, but the NiteRider Cherry Bomb looks to be quite a good self-contained option. Any opinions?

rjsterry

While slowing down is obviously a good idea if you can't see because of glare, sometimes that glare comes on almost instantly. for example when you turn a corner, or crest a hill. If you jam your brakes on, the next person behind you (who will also be dazzled) is likely to run into the back of you.

Sunglasses with polarising lenses are particularly good at reducing glare, but failing that wearing a baseball cap, so that you can tilt the peak down (like the vizor on a bike helmet) would work well. Following on from davis's post, a vizor blocks out the brighter sky, giving the eyes a smaller range of brightness to cope with.

tailwindhome

The Highway Code wrote:

237
........ If you are dazzled by bright sunlight, slow down and if necessary, stop.

wyadvd

yes very familiar with the concept of dynamic range. Being a radiographer of some year's experience. Have experimented with driving with and withoit shades recently (some are designed for driving, some not , i understand) and am not happy that my contrast accuity is improved within the shadowy areas when wearing shades , so I dont. To me the bright bits get slightly darker and the shadows become black (apart from the exposure redeyes shining out at me!)

wyadvd

i run my redeye directly off a piggy back battery ....that works well. I am lookimg for something very briggt but also as large as a car's fog light , quite happy to have an 18v drill battery in my pannier to make it shine....

wyadvd

prj: do you drive yourself??

jonny_trousers

wyadvd wrote:

i run my redeye directly off a piggy back battery ....that works well. I am lookimg for something very briggt but also as large as a car's fog light , quite happy to have an 18v drill battery in my pannier to make it shine....

I hope the above is a joke as there are few things more annoying or distracting as a fog lamp blasting away when there is no need for it.

I think the general point being made in this thread is a good one: cyclists beware that you may be hard to spot even in daylight. Stack the odds in your favour and consider using your lights even when it is not dark outside.

As soon as I decided I was going to commute regularly by bike I made a conscious effort, when driving, to pick up on what it was that those riders who made themselves obvious in traffic did. I definitely noticed strobing rear lights in the daytime and a flashing front lights. It can be distracting to car drivers to have a super powerful, flashing white light coming at you from the opposite side of the road, but a fairly average powered one is fantastic for simply drawing attention, particularly when a bike is passing you from behind and you can spot them coming in the mirrors. And you know what? You really do notice those in high viz jackets. Okay you may look like a bit of a tw@, but where safety is concerned who the hell cares?

In the same way that car drivers should experience riding a bike among traffic so as to understand what their fellow road users go through, I think there are a lot of cyclists out there who could do with being shown just how hard they are to spot from the seat of a car.

Like it or not, we are always going to have to share the roads with cars, trucks, busses and bikes, for our own safety we need to make our presence known.

wyadvd

I think sometimes it is necessary for a cyclist to both distract and annoy motorists in order to get noticed at all. Moderation in all things though as you imply (including moderation itself of course!)

I think a rear light of a similar size and brightness to a car brake light might be quite effective.

Here are a few photos of my current rear light setup:

The first couple are analogous to what I saw of the two cyclists yesterday, except I have lights on. BTW Iam 43 and have 20-20 vision according to my last eye test!

http://picasaweb.google.com/wyadvd/2010 ... directlink

jonny_trousers

wyadvd wrote:

I think sometimes it is necessary for a cyclist to both distract and annoy motorists in order to get noticed at all.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. Attract the motorist's eye rather than distract and if them getting annoyed is only a bi-product of staying safe then sure, but I really don't think it is great to set out to annoy.

wyadvd

i never set out to annoy , the motorists do that all by themselves. I set out merely to stay alive!! And if a motorist is waiting at a junction and im the only vehicle approaching from his right and i dont actually see him looking at my eyes, then i sound my zune (its a reflex action now) it tends to distract them from their cd/ telephone call/ masturbation or what ever it might be!

wyadvd

i meant air zound not zune

shouldbeinbed

+1 for the difficulty in your eyes adapting, I always used to worry on M/cr - Blackpool when it went through Haigh Hall, bright and open fields that immediately plunge into a totally overhung dark wooded winding downhill road.

a complete shock to the system especially for the occasional & charidee riders. I saw an awful lot of people faceplanting trees or; when they chicained it with straw bales; shooting feet into the air over the bars as they'd not slowed for the conditions and couldn't see further than their front wheel.

+1 also for attracting, not distracting. all well and good a driver being blitzed by my mega pimped light system to see me, but not so if they're distracted enough by it to take a second look or comment to a passenger about how unusual it is and mow a kid down crossing the road at the same time.

wyadvd

good point well made