History in schools.

rick_chasey

Since there appears to be the odd person who knows a bit or two about history (and indeed, historiography), I wonder what they make of this?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... us-history

I say, sod it all, and make a case study of the TdF compulsary 8)

tebbit

+ 1 TdF a compulsory subject, but in the interests of equality and fairness, we also should include the Giro and Vuelta, or they could be separate subjects.

finchy

Might as well just scrap history it's a pointless subject anyway.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Might as well just scrap history it's a pointless subject anyway.

Why?

skyd0g

History isn't as good now as it used to be.

morstar

Clearly there is an obvious link between being a God fearing Christian and the need to have lots and lots of guns.

Absolutely no contradiction there then!

W*nkers

Splottboy

I used to go out with a girl who was studying History.

We had to split up, as she was just living in the past...

stigofthedump

It is scary to think that these people are now trying to rewrite History as well as Science.
It is almost Orwellian.
BTW johnfinch, History teaches us how to interpert evidence. A vital skill in the 'Newspeak' era in which we are being forced to live by some of these fundamentalists

freehub

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

finchy

rick and stig - I was being a wind up. I did an Ancient History A-level and it was favourite subject. Wish I'd continued it at university rather than thinking that Politics would be more useful. :roll:

bagpusscp

All that is going to be, has been before. Learn from it.

PBo

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

freehub

PBo wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

Yeah because I'll need to know about the slave trade to survive in life and get a job and because I cannot remember half of it must mean I'm gonna fail :roll:

takethehighroad

Coalitions, arguing Government, a public who don't really know what they want.

And we thought WE had it bad in terms of the decision makers!!!

wish I would have carried on with history for GCSE, but choosing French wasn't such a bad idea for me, given I'm now graduating with a French degree.

I love the quote "We can only move to the future by learning from the mistakes in our past"

finchy

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

I'm now graduating with a French degree.

That's a waste of time as well. :P

Anonymous

freehub wrote:

PBo wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

Yeah because I'll need to know about the slave trade to survive in life and get a job and because I cannot remember half of it must mean I'm gonna fail :roll:

What do you mean, "Gonna fail", we all think you are there already, and all that

rml380z

Rick Chasey wrote:

...
I say, sod it all, and make a case study of the TdF compulsary 8)
...

Aren't Texans taught that the TdF was a bike race run each year between 1999 and 2005?

freehub

dmclite wrote:

freehub wrote:

PBo wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

Yeah because I'll need to know about the slave trade to survive in life and get a job and because I cannot remember half of it must mean I'm gonna fail :roll:

What do you mean, "Gonna fail", we all think you are there already, and all that

Well you'd think half of this forum must have failed if they're in jobs where they can find the time to go on these forums whilst in work.... and all that...

Anonymous

freehub wrote:

dmclite wrote:

freehub wrote:

PBo wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

Yeah because I'll need to know about the slave trade to survive in life and get a job and because I cannot remember half of it must mean I'm gonna fail :roll:

What do you mean, "Gonna fail", we all think you are there already, and all that

Well you'd think half of this forum must have failed if they're in jobs where they can find the time to go on these forums whilst in work.... and all that...

Wrong. The idea of getting a good job is to be paid more and do less. You can only do this if you are shrewd, clever and lucky. OOps, gotta go, here comes my manager.

Limburger

Will, Dmclite is right. I managed to put in as little work as possible during my degree and now have a job which allows me to come in when I please and leave when I like. Plus some other benefits such as the 42 days paid holiday, C2W scheme where you are just given a bike every two years - no payments required. Not least forgetting all the foreign trip I can go on as part of my job.

I managed all this by being occasionally brilliant, but mostly lazy. Not everyone can do that.

History has taught me this: The guy who does the most work gets the least recognition. (Or money and holidays and the like) and all that.

shockedsoshocked

freehub wrote:

PBo wrote:

freehub wrote:

When I did history in school we had to all write an essay on the slave trade, mine was the best in the class, I got my mum to do it all and I just copied it. Was very interesting learning about the plantations and all that.

..."and all that"? ha, ha, way to summarise an important part of history which has played a sizeable role in shaping the current economic and sociopolitical state of the world...

I learned about the second world war today.

It was really interesting learning about silly little mustaches and all that.

Yeah because I'll need to know about the slave trade to survive in life and get a job and because I cannot remember half of it must mean I'm gonna fail :roll:

You don't need it to survive, but it's always nice not to be ignorant about things.

freehub

I'm not ignorant about things, PBo thinks everyone must have a proper deep knowledge base of the slave trade and WW2 in my head...

passout

Rick Chasey wrote:

Since there appears to be the odd person who knows a bit or two about history (and indeed, historiography), I wonder what they make of this?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... us-history

I say, sod it all, and make a case study of the TdF compulsary 8)

Right wing, God -fearing, gun toting Texans - fair enough, it's their state and I'm fairly conservative myself by British standards. But what I really can't stomach is the way in which they are so 'sure'. No questioning, no empathy with other views, no compromise etc. It really does seem as if the 'stupid brigade' have taken over education in Texas.

It's not just history of course in the States - evolution......

Pross

Limburger wrote:

Will, Dmclite is right. I managed to put in as little work as possible during my degree and now have a job which allows me to come in when I please and leave when I like. Plus some other benefits such as the 42 days paid holiday, C2W scheme where you are just given a bike every two years - no payments required. Not least forgetting all the foreign trip I can go on as part of my job.

I managed all this by being occasionally brilliant, but mostly lazy. Not everyone can do that.

History has taught me this: The guy who does the most work gets the least recognition. (Or money and holidays and the like) and all that.

Any vacancies? I think I'll fit in there!

rake

thats why britains in the crapper.

disgruntledgoat

Limburger wrote:

Will, Dmclite is right. I managed to put in as little work as possible during my degree and now have a job which allows me to come in when I please and leave when I like. Plus some other benefits such as the 42 days paid holiday, C2W scheme where you are just given a bike every two years - no payments required. Not least forgetting all the foreign trip I can go on as part of my job.

I managed all this by being occasionally brilliant, but mostly lazy. Not everyone can do that.

History has taught me this: The guy who does the most work gets the least recognition. (Or money and holidays and the like) and all that.

True dat.

There were 3 jobs I really wanted to do growing up and I tried and failed at all of them. And got a 3rd in my degree.

Now, 5 years later, I make more than most of my peers at uni, i have 40 days holiday a year and despite being an icorrigable skiver am regarded by my employer as somebody who gets things done and gets them right first time.

I have achieved all this with the simple realisation that you can get away with nearly anything if you are reliable when called upon and personable at all times. Likewise, if you pulled out your A-Game all the time, they'd come to expect it!

PBo

freehub wrote:

I'm not ignorant about things, PBo thinks everyone must have a proper deep knowledge base of the slave trade and WW2 in my head...

show me were I said anything like that??

Look I don't know what age you where when you did this - given you copied your mum's work, and then took the plaudits for having the best essay in the class, I'll guess 7 - but I guess you didn't learn much if you summarise the slave trade as "plantations and all that!!!"

And if one doesn't have some basic idea about important historical issues like the slave trade and WWII, then maybe being called ignorant isn't far wrong.

PBo's cribsheet to uk/european/world history

Stone age - fire, the wheel and stuff
bronze age - metal and stuff
iron age - stronger metal and stuff
ancient world - wooden horses and stuff
romans - gladiators and stuff
middle ages - castles and stuff
reformation - royal divorces and stuff
industrial revolution - mills and stuff
crimean war - florence nightingale and stuff
1st world war - trenches and stuff
2nd world war - 'allo 'allo and stuff
cold war - big walls and stuff
dot.com era - tinterweb and stuff
noughties - big brother, banks and stuff

[/b]

rick_chasey

passout wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Since there appears to be the odd person who knows a bit or two about history (and indeed, historiography), I wonder what they make of this?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... us-history

I say, sod it all, and make a case study of the TdF compulsary 8)

Right wing, God -fearing, gun toting Texans - fair enough, it's their state and I'm fairly conservative myself by British standards. But what I really can't stomach is the way in which they are so 'sure'. No questioning, no empathy with other views, no compromise etc. It really does seem as if the 'stupid brigade' have taken over education in Texas.

It's not just history of course in the States - evolution......

As I see it, there should be a simple way around this 'teaching of history', but it involves a re-adjustment of what some people consider history to be.


If there was one thing, beyond all that "transferable skills" malarky, that I gained from studying history, was the power to really interrogate anything put in front of me, and an ease to really take two steps back, understand the context on quite a fundamental level, and as a result have a reasonably objective view on it.* It was certainly not the facts and figures I learned about whatever topic or period I happened to be studying.

I also think that the nature of the past, that it has all once occured whether you want it to have or not, to some extent removes and disarms excessive moral judgement and opinion. It has happened, so judging it achieves very little. Instead, history asks you to deal with the past.

For me, the value of history to people as part of their education, is not really the particular narratives and events which are prominant in the collective memory, (though that certainly makes behaving as an involved citizen much easier), but the thought processes used when looking at the past to 'make' history. Learning the subjectivity of language, interpretation, and analysis, and being given the tools to really interrogate and challenge information.

Of course, as part of a compulsary education in secondary school, where the majority of pupils take no formal interest in history academia, that objective might be difficult to achieve, but a watered down, perhaps slightly more superficial version would still be attainable.

If the focus was on the process, and less about the narrative, then stories like this, attempts to politicise the past for political gain, would become less relevant.

Then again, a fundamental part of being a citizen of a state nation is to understand and be part of the 'collective memory'. i.e. what events and interpretations of the past a particular society considers significant or important. But, as the OP story shows, that is as much a political, (perhaps even controlling) device, as an educational device.


* I didn't however, lose the habbit of being obtuse to get my own way in an opinionated arugment.

PBo

Rick Chasey wrote:

passout wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Since there appears to be the odd person who knows a bit or two about history (and indeed, historiography), I wonder what they make of this?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... us-history

I say, sod it all, and make a case study of the TdF compulsary 8)

Right wing, God -fearing, gun toting Texans - fair enough, it's their state and I'm fairly conservative myself by British standards. But what I really can't stomach is the way in which they are so 'sure'. No questioning, no empathy with other views, no compromise etc. It really does seem as if the 'stupid brigade' have taken over education in Texas.

It's not just history of course in the States - evolution......

As I see it, there should be a simple way around this 'teaching of history', but it involves a re-adjustment of what some people consider history to be.


If there was one thing, beyond all that "transferable skills" malarky, that I gained from studying history, was the power to really interrogate anything put in front of me, and an ease to really take two steps back, understand the context on quite a fundamental level, and as a result have a reasonably objective view on it.* It was certainly not the facts and figures I learned about whatever topic or period I happened to be studying.

I also think that the nature of the past, that it has all once occured whether you want it to have or not, to some extent removes and disarms excessive moral judgement and opinion. It has happened, so judging it achieves very little. Instead, history asks you to deal with the past.

For me, the value of history to people as part of their education, is not really the particular narratives and events which are prominant in the collective memory, (though that certainly makes behaving as an involved citizen much easier), but the thought processes used when looking at the past to 'make' history. Learning the subjectivity of language, interpretation, and analysis, and being given the tools to really interrogate and challenge information.

Of course, as part of a compulsary education in secondary school, where the majority of pupils take no formal interest in history academia, that objective might be difficult to achieve, but a watered down, perhaps slightly more superficial version would still be attainable.

If the focus was on the process, and less about the narrative, then stories like this, attempts to politicise the past for political gain, would become less relevant.

Then again, a fundamental part of being a citizen of a state nation is to understand and be part of the 'collective memory'. i.e. what events and interpretations of the past a particular society considers significant or important. But, as the OP story shows, that is as much a political, (perhaps even controlling) device, as an educational device.


* I didn't however, lose the habbit of being obtuse to get my own way in an opinionated arugment.

Interesting stuff, Rick, and I agree*.

My view is this: I hated history at school, couldn't see the point etc; but am interested in it now, because I've come to see that history is not a set of isolated events, but a whole bunch of threads that weave together and paint the picture of where we are now - we need to untangle those threads and understand them individually, but also as part of the bigger tapestry. We also have to remember that great saying about winners writing history and always remind ourselves to keep an open mind about the received wisdom. Although I didn't study it in higher education, I know many who did who have sound skills in questioning, dissecting and forming their own judgements.


*with your last sentence.

PBo

[quote="freehub"PBo thinks everyone must have a proper deep knowledge base of the slave trade and WW2 in my head...[/quote]

not sure there's enough room for us all.....

Flasheart

Limburger wrote:

Will, Dmclite is right. I managed to put in as little work as possible during my degree and now have a job which allows me to come in when I please and leave when I like. Plus some other benefits such as the 42 days paid holiday, C2W scheme where you are just given a bike every two years - no payments required. Not least forgetting all the foreign trip I can go on as part of my job.

I managed all this by being occasionally brilliant, but mostly lazy. Not everyone can do that.

History has taught me this: The guy who does the most work gets the least recognition. (Or money and holidays and the like) and all that.

Need an assistant :?: