Cotic Road Rat: your thoughts again, please...

jonny_trousers

Sorry guys, you must be bored to tears by my questions by now, but you really are helping me a huge amount.

So an expensive SS is out of the equation. I may well buy something cheap and ride it fixed, but that will not be my primary bike.

I bit the bullet earlier today and popped into my local Evans where I filled in a very tired (and bored) looking assistant on what I am looking for in a bike, whereupon, without blinking an eye, he took me to this strange looking Speialized 'road bike' declaring that it was the one for me. Now, maybe it is a great bike, but his determination to suggest that one, and that one alone, made me raise a metaphorical eyebrow and wonder if Evans might have some kind of a deal with Specialized (commission on sales made perhaps?). I couldn't try it anyway, but something about the bike, and my visit, left me cold and put me off visiting Evans again.

So I am back to thinking about the Sideways drop bar/Alfine Road Rat (click here) as it seems to tick all of my boxes as an all year commuter and I was all set to fire off an email to Sideways giving them the green light when I stumbled across this thread (click here) where the Road Rat, in any of its guises gets a bit of a kicking. Now, I could really do with the advice of you guys here: is the Sideways Road Rat a decent bike? At £999 it seems like a particularly good deal when compared to similar bikes (sadly it no longer comes with the Bontrager finishing kit). Please bear in mind that I am not looking for a road bike. I want a fast, strong, fun commuter that can take on all that the city has to throw at it. Honestly, your thoughts are massively appreciated.

PS. I think it looks pretty damn sexy too which has to count for something right?

jonny_trousers

Ah bollox! To complicate matters further, I have just heard back from Dynamic in the States who were pretty much the first to offer an Alfine/drop bar set up (or so they claim). They are offering me the bike delivered to my door at a price that equates to just a little over 800 quid. Again, the spec looks pretty good only this time it comes with an alu frame and carbon fork. I have to say, I am sorely tempted to take a punt. Thoughts from those of you in the know gratefully received. Here are a couple of links...


http://www.dynamicbicycles.com/buy/Bikes.php?prodid=75

http://bikehugger.com/2009/04/dynamics- ... e-the.html

Canny Jock

For your requirements, that looks great - from what you say you're not looking for the worlds fastest and lightest road machine, but that seems to be a decent frame, disks and Alfine hub are good for commuting (but heavy, as you probably know).

I've heard Road Rats get good write ups on forums (can't remember if it was here or www.lfgss.com). I don't know though how easy it is to change a tube on the back wheel if you get a puncture though, but it shouldn't be a big issue.

Another option, saving some money would be a Cyclocross bike e.g. Tricross, although this has traditional gears and generally cantilever rim brakes - not as effective as disks in the wet.

Edit - my post was in response to your original one.

itboffin

Hey JT that doesn't look to me like £800 worth of bike, apart from the Alfine hub gear the rest of the parts seem very entry level.

Shimano are planning on releasing an 11 speed version in Sept. http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/f ... gear-24930 meanwhile i'd be inclined to buy a bike with a good quality alu or steel frame with carbon forks, with whatever gears (Campag ) then upgrade the when the 11 speed is launched taking advantage of the no doubt large discounts on 8 speed hub gear.

I suspect that welding on the frame is very poor quality, esp if the picture is anything to go by.



Sorry to rain on your parade but really if you/anyone are going to spend the best part of a grand on a bike you really really should ride it first.

el_presidente

Sorry to rain on your parade but really if you/anyone are going to spend the best part of a grand on a bike you really really should ride it first.

exactly what I was going to say

itboffin

I forgot to say why don't you PM Roastie a regular on here, he's been busy putting together a custom commuter that seems to tick a lot of your boxes.

The current version, belt drive and hub gear 8)


His blog here
http://suchbikes.blogspot.com/

solsurf

I'd go for a Genesis crois de fer £999 reynolds frame disk brakes, quick lightish and looks bl**dy good. but thats me. Just have to convince my wife that its the perfect bike.

the cotic does look good though

lost_in_thought

Nothing much to add... but have you looked at import duty on the US import? They can really sting you on that.

Also, really, are you absolutely sure you need a hub gear and disc brakes? I mean, heck, I'd go for just about anything but. It's all the weight with little of the benefit. Oh and the one (SRAM) hub-geared bike I had gave up within 9 months (of abuse). Can it be fixed? No! It's a sealed system, silly. You need a new one.

Or so I was told.

jonny_trousers

Thanks all!

No parades rained upon; that's just the kind of advice I was after. Thanks!

Right! So the Yank import is out. For what it's worth, the price Dynamic quoted me included postage and import duty Lit.

Roastie's bike looks like my ideal itboffin, but I seem to recall it is still some way off being put into production. Apart from anything, wasn't the frame carbon, which would put it right out of my price bracket? I may PM him anyway.

The Croix De Fer is an utterly mad bike solsurf, but I must admit, I do like it. I may try to test ride one. There was a 56 cm one that looked good on Ebay the other day (I think I would prefer 54) that you might be able to sneak past your wife.

I really fancy a hub gear Lit, because they just make so much sense to me from a low maintainance perspective. Barring the extra weight, they seem to offer the simplicity of a single speed, but the luxury of gears. On my commute I have no need for many gears, but I have come to the conclusion that I would be unhappy with just one (I'll just add that drop bars are a must, which massively restricts my options). Are there decent bikes out there that use a regular mech on the back and a single ring on the front?

I do agree that I should be trying before I buy. I may take a trip down to Brixton Cycles tomorrow and have a chat with them. Surlys seem to be there thing, and although they look quite nice, I can't help thinking they may be a little overpriced.

Maybe I can find someone to build my ideal bike from scratch? Hmm. Any recommendations?

lost_in_thought

OK, it's late and frankly I've had more boozes than one ought to on a school night.

But I would like to point out that you don't have to use a second ring on the front just 'cause it's there. And hell, you might need it one day.

I honestly don't see the point in hub geared bikes. I'm sure countless others will disagree, but hey, there's a reason why you don't see them underneath any top cyclists...

From a maintenance perspective, proper gears are harder to fix than a SS. Hub gears are incomprehensible. Sure, they're not meant to break, but volcanoes aren't meant to disrupt air travel.

jonny_trousers

It's a fair point and I'm not completely sold on using hub gears. I just want to find a bike to fall in love with sniff*

itsbruce

Don't be shamed away from hub gears by sniffy talk about top cyclists; as you said, you're looking for a commuter bike, not planning to enter the Tour de France. Hub gears are more reliable and durable than derailleurs (notwithstanding Lit's sample of one), they allow stronger chains and rear wheels and they are particularly suited to the stop/start rhythm of commuting.

Most commuters simply do not need 27 gears; on an urban bike, the only real advantages are the cheaper initial cost and the lighter weight (which is something I am more tired than I can express of hearing about from people wearing team jerseys to cycle three miles to work).

Disc brakes have similar advantages to hub gears, being more durable than rim breaks and good in all weather conditions. They also put less wear on the tire and the results of wear are cheaper and easier to fix. And let's not forget they provide more breaking power (or the same power with less effort). The main disadvantage of disc brakes - requiring a heavier, stronger wheel assembly - is not really an issue if you've chosen a hub gear, as that already comes as part of the package.

So don't be dissuaded from making what are perfectly sensible choices by the fashion police. There are plenty of good looking urban bike models with hub gears and disc brakes. Besides, I take issue with the whole idea that "top cyclists" wouldn't use hub gears; they wouldn't have them on their race bikes, where it's not appropriate, but if they ever have an urban commute, those aren't the bikes they'd be riding.

Aapje

lost_in_thought wrote:

Also, really, are you absolutely sure you need a hub gear and disc brakes? I mean, heck, I'd go for just about anything but. It's all the weight with little of the benefit.

Except for their robustness, low maintenance, ability to use a fully enclosing chainguard and safety in the wet.

For all-weather commutes, a hubbed bike is a great option.

Oh and the one (SRAM) hub-geared bike I had gave up within 9 months (of abuse). Can it be fixed? No! It's a sealed system, silly. You need a new one.

You must have had a lemon. I have good experiences with hubbed bikes. Shimano 3-speed and 8 speed Red Band/Alfine are especially good and can last many years with minimal/no maintenance. Hubs can also be serviced and repaired, although the more complex hubs are not so easy to maintain, so your local bikeshop might not have the expertise.

The Rookie

For a commuter, the other option from hub geared is 1x9, you at least shed the weight and complexity of the extra kit at the front and have the cleaner bars from loosing the LH shifter (more so on flat bars as you don't have to have the 2 levered brakes for drops)

Chap at work loves his hub geared Spesh, he has lots of lights on his 4mile commute (about 10) and he can approach at speed and if he has to stop doesn't have to worry about getting it into the right gear first as he can shift stationary, that is where hubs really score on a commuter.

Simon

surreyxc

have you ridden a bike with a rear hub gear before. I ask as for me I like a 'rear end' which is responsive for those surprise potholes etc. I would imagine internal hub gears would reduce flickability. But then it depends on how far fast you will be going and if you are using panniers, with panniers you may as well have internal gears. I have been through the process of deciding on a commuter for me it will be a cyclocross.

MrBlond

Just to throw something else out there...

http://www.on-one.co.uk/news/products/q ... phetamines

vorsprung

I actually have a Cotic Roadrat with drop bars that I built up with a lot of parts from Cotic + my own wheels+ Alfine shifters

The write up is in the review section on yacf if you want to read it again

The singletrack slag-off-athon of the Roadrat makes some good points

the forts are ugly,,yes
the paint is good ...yes
the frame isn't the lightest in the world,,,yes

it's like an expensive hybrid...someone answered this point with the observation that it does have proper rack points etc. My missus' old hybrd has rack points, so what? Yes it is somewhat like an expensive hybrid. Also somewhat like a cross bike.

vorsprung

MrBlond wrote:

Just to throw something else out there...

http://www.on-one.co.uk/news/products/q ... phetamines

As usual this is a non available product from On-One. If I could have got hold of a 135mm spaced Pompino in the 6 months or so I was looking at building up my bike I would have probably got one.

But they were always out of stock

vorsprung

surreyxc wrote:

have you ridden a bike with a rear hub gear before. I ask as for me I like a 'rear end' which is responsive for those surprise potholes etc. I would imagine internal hub gears would reduce flickability. But then it depends on how far fast you will be going and if you are using panniers, with panniers you may as well have internal gears. I have been through the process of deciding on a commuter for me it will be a cyclocross.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here....I don't change gear if I see a pothole?

I think you are saying that hub gears don't change as slickly as derailluer gears. Yes that is quite true. It only has 8 gears and I spend most time in 5 6 7. 5 is "direct drive" and feels a bit like a single speed.

The real reason I got the Alfine instead of a single speed is that when I am ill or have had a heavy weekend I can still get over the hills to work with no pain, albeit a little slower

Single speed feels faster than Alfine gears to me

lost_in_thought

itsbruce wrote:

Don't be shamed away from hub gears by sniffy talk about top cyclists; as you said, you're looking for a commuter bike, not planning to enter the Tour de France. Hub gears are more reliable and durable than derailleurs (notwithstanding Lit's sample of one), they allow stronger chains and rear wheels and they are particularly suited to the stop/start rhythm of commuting.

Most commuters simply do not need 27 gears; on an urban bike, the only real advantages are the cheaper initial cost and the lighter weight (which is something I am more tired than I can express of hearing about from people wearing team jerseys to cycle three miles to work).

Disc brakes have similar advantages to hub gears, being more durable than rim breaks and good in all weather conditions. They also put less wear on the tire and the results of wear are cheaper and easier to fix. And let's not forget they provide more breaking power (or the same power with less effort). The main disadvantage of disc brakes - requiring a heavier, stronger wheel assembly - is not really an issue if you've chosen a hub gear, as that already comes as part of the package.

So don't be dissuaded from making what are perfectly sensible choices by the fashion police. There are plenty of good looking urban bike models with hub gears and disc brakes. Besides, I take issue with the whole idea that "top cyclists" wouldn't use hub gears; they wouldn't have them on their race bikes, where it's not appropriate, but if they ever have an urban commute, those aren't the bikes they'd be riding.

Fashion police? Have you SEEN my collection of bikes?

Ah funny.

Anyway. No, most commuters don't need 27 gears. However, if you want to go out on a fun weekend ride or join a cycling club, which many people do end up doing, is a hub geared bike really the best choice for that? Um....no.

Sure, you might only need 3 gears in London. Heck, I and others would say that you only need one. And yes, you can do a sportive on a unicycle if you really want to, but I'd argue that if you're buying a geared bike you might as well get one that has more than one use.

Aidy

vorsprung wrote:

surreyxc wrote:

have you ridden a bike with a rear hub gear before. I ask as for me I like a 'rear end' which is responsive for those surprise potholes etc. I would imagine internal hub gears would reduce flickability. But then it depends on how far fast you will be going and if you are using panniers, with panniers you may as well have internal gears. I have been through the process of deciding on a commuter for me it will be a cyclocross.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here....I don't change gear if I see a pothole?

I think you are saying that hub gears don't change as slickly as derailluer gears. Yes that is quite true. It only has 8 gears and I spend most time in 5 6 7. 5 is "direct drive" and feels a bit like a single speed.

The real reason I got the Alfine instead of a single speed is that when I am ill or have had a heavy weekend I can still get over the hills to work with no pain, albeit a little slower

Single speed feels faster than Alfine gears to me

I suspect he's saying that with such an increased weight over the rear axle, the bike feels less lively, and clunk through potholes, rather than skipping neatly across the top of them.

stuaff

LiT's not the only one who's had a hub gear die on her. Got my Jetstream right at the end of '07, quickly decided that lovely and sprightly as it was, I wanted & needed a bigger gear range (climbing out of the saddle on a long stem is not a good idea, 94 inch top end not that high either...). So I got a SRAM DualDrive hub wheel built up by a chap in the US (much cheaper even with shipping etc) and fitted (as used on the current version of my bike & numerous other Dahons, Bike Fridays, etc). 22"-125" gear range, about a kilo extra weight-not ideal, but manageable, sorted, worked really well....until it disintegrated last June! I never got a bill for the parts, so I assume the UK importer decided it was a manufacturing fault. Been OK since, touch wood....

vorsprung

Aidy wrote:

I suspect he's saying that with such an increased weight over the rear axle, the bike feels less lively, and clunk through potholes, rather than skipping neatly across the top of them.

Ah right!
Bit difficult to say really. I switched from a single speed to the Alfine and I didn't notice the back end being any heavier really. But then I usually have a ton of luggage on the back.

My audax bike is skippy the bush kangeroo when it has mitchelin pro race on even with a ton of luggage. So I suspect the whole equation is more complicated than a simple matter of rear end weight

iPete

itboffin wrote:

I forgot to say why don't you PM Roastie a regular on here, he's been busy putting together a custom commuter that seems to tick a lot of your boxes.

The current version, belt drive and hub gear 8)


His blog here
http://suchbikes.blogspot.com/

Never seen a bike with a belt drive! Want a SS with one now for ultimate novelty factor!

amnezia

iPete wrote:

Never seen a bike with a belt drive! Want a SS with one now for ultimate novelty factor!

There was one of these on the embankment the other day,

http://www.cycles-for-heroes.com/bikes/ ... peacemaker

Fixed Gear with a carbon belt drive. It looked quite nice apart from the silly handle bars.

itsbruce

lost_in_thought wrote:

Anyway. No, most commuters don't need 27 gears. However, if you want to go out on a fun weekend ride or join a cycling club, which many people do end up doing, is a hub geared bike really the best choice for that? Um....no.

Ah, but then you can just select from your extensive collection :P

Sure, you might only need 3 gears in London. Heck, I and others would say that you only need one. And yes, you can do a sportive on a unicycle if you really want to, but I'd argue that if you're buying a geared bike you might as well get one that has more than one use.

3 gears? Not for me, thanks. 8 or 9, though, is plenty for London. But the OP was asking specifically about a commuting bike. To me, it doesn't make sense to buy a less suitable commuting bike, which I'll be using 5 days a week, just because I might one day want something else for the weekend.

Radioactiveman

amnezia wrote:

iPete wrote:

Never seen a bike with a belt drive! Want a SS with one now for ultimate novelty factor!

There was one of these on the embankment the other day,

http://www.cycles-for-heroes.com/bikes/ ... peacemaker

Fixed Gear with a carbon belt drive. It looked quite nice apart from the silly handle bars.

Only way I would consider any form of belt drive is it had a split dropout on the driveside. I know belts are meant to last forever but I dont want to be left in the lurch being the unlucky 1in 100000. Seriously considering a belt drive hub gear hardtail in the future

tiny_pens

vorsprung wrote:

Aidy wrote:

I suspect he's saying that with such an increased weight over the rear axle, the bike feels less lively, and clunk through potholes, rather than skipping neatly across the top of them.

Ah right!
Bit difficult to say really. I switched from a single speed to the Alfine and I didn't notice the back end being any heavier really. But then I usually have a ton of luggage on the back.

My audax bike is skippy the bush kangeroo when it has mitchelin pro race on even with a ton of luggage. So I suspect the whole equation is more complicated than a simple matter of rear end weight

Thats pretty much the way I noticed the difference in having a hub gear bike - its like a regular bike with a rack on the back. Only ever really noticed the difference in weight when lifting the bike to manouvre it. Couldn't notice it really when riding (although my bunny hops are poor at best - I try to ride round holes rather than jump them where possible)

That said, I never noticed a single speed bike being any better handling than a geared bike either.

HTH

jonny_trousers

Thanks again you lot!

To be honest, I probably have to get the Alfine idea out of my head, especially as the 11 speed will be out before too long and like someone said above, that will either be a better option or will bring down the price of the eight speeds.

Itsbruce is right to point out that I really will only be using my bike for the commute, but even so, I want a bike that not only excites me to ride it, but will reward me for pushing myself harder (with that attitude is it only a matter of time before I want to ride more than the commute?).

I guess if I wasn't so hung up on having drop bars then there would be numerous options open to me when trying out bikes with the Alfine hub, but for comfort's sake, drops are an absolute must. With that in mind, the only bikes I have ever seen with the Alfine drop combo is the Dynamic Synergy, the Sideways/Cotic Road Rat and Roastie's project.

Apart from the advice I am reading above I do sometimes ask myself why there are not more drop bar/Alfine bikes out there if it is such a great combination for commuting.

I liked the idea of the Alfine because 8 gears are plenty for me, being able to swap gear at a stop makes some sense (not that I have ever struggled too badly by ending up in the wrong gear at the lights on my present set up), the low level of maintenance that is required (that may just be a bad justification as I can easily maintain the basics myself and can afford a professional service once or twice a year) and - though I probably shouldn't own up to it - but I do think the Sideways/Cotic looks flipping cool (silly forks included).

So I will put my Alfine obsession aside and accept that it may have been based on flawed reasoning.

It's simple really isn't it? I just need to hit as many quality LBCs as I can, bend their ears and try their bikes. It shouldn't be too hard should it? All I want is fast, comfortable, light, responsive and cool looking (with bonus points for black).

itsbruce

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Apart from the advice I am reading above I do sometimes ask myself why there are not more drop bar/Alfine bikes out there if it is such a great combination for commuting.

Maybe it's the drop bars that are the problem Flat bars are popular in urban/commuting models because they give greater control. That said, much depends on the length of your commute and your riding style.

jonny_trousers

itsbruce wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Apart from the advice I am reading above I do sometimes ask myself why there are not more drop bar/Alfine bikes out there if it is such a great combination for commuting.

Maybe it's the drop bars that are the problem Flat bars are popular in urban/commuting models because they give greater control. That said, much depends on the length of your commute and your riding style.

It's predominantly a comfort thing for me: I am far happier with the hand position options available on drops and thus the way I position my entire upper body.