Bike accident - legal question

il_principe
il_principe Posts: 9,155
edited May 2010 in Commuting chat
Sorry guys, need some help here. After my bike crash I had instructed a solicitors to move ahead with my claim. Before signing the Conditional Fee Agreement I discovered that I was covered for legal expenses through my home contents insurance. My insurers will only handle my claim if I use one of their solicitors. My question is, if the firm I've been using do not possess a CFA signed by me, am I within my rights to instruct them that I no longer want to use them? I was quite happy with them, but would rather ensure that I am fully covered should my claim go to court and fail!

Thanks in advance peeps!

Comments

  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    [dangerously slightly informed not-lawyer]
    Possibly not - you certainly seem to have entered into a verbal contract, and your conduct to date may make the existence of that contract relatively easy to establish.
    [/dangerously slightly informed not-lawyer]
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Mmmm this is what worries me. I feel pretty bad about dropping them but have little choice really. I've not signed anything though and correspondence has been all done over the phone. If this ends up with me owing them money then that would suck!
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    You can disinstruct them at any time without explanation. Will you be required to pay their fees to date? I would have thought that if you give them an explanation of why you don't want to continue using them, they'll accept the position. They may ask for your insurers' details so that they can contact them and discuss the option of continuing to act for you, even though they aren't a preferred legal supplier. If they do get arsey with you and demand payment of their fees, I suggest you point out that they ought to have advised you at the outset to check whether you had legal expenses insurance. In reality if they've just written a few letters / made a few calls, they'll probably just write it off.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Yes, lawyers love working for free
    <a>road</a>
  • Bikerbaboon
    Bikerbaboon Posts: 1,017
    edited May 2010
    el_presidente wrote:
    Yes, lawyers love working for a fee

    fixed it :)
    Nothing in life can not be improved with either monkeys, pirates or ninjas
    456
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    But if I've not signed an agreement then what can they do? To be fair I'm not sure they've done much except chase me for the CFA anyway.
  • skyd0g
    skyd0g Posts: 2,540
    <notalawyer>
    It is likely and reasonable for the solicitors that have been so-far acting on your behalf to want payment for the work they have completed to-date. They would normally be looking to recover their fees from the completion of the case.

    It is also unlikely that your insurers would want to settle this previous bill as it has nothing to do with them, possibly arguing (reasonably) that you should have started your action through them in the first instance.

    It may be worthwhile to contact your current solicitors to see what (if any) fee is payable if you back out now. Once you have established this, you will be clearer on what your options are.
    </notalawyer>
    Cycling weakly
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    I wasn't aware that I was covered at all, it hadn't even crossed my mind to check until the solicitors I was recommended raised it as an issue with me. Perhaps they should have made this clear from the outset. I work in an industry where we frequently put a lot of time and money into winning potential clients only to have them turn round and say 'no.' I guess I naively thought that this would be similar - in that you are not liable for any costs until paperwork has been signed. I've signed nothing so do they have a legal leg to stand on in terms of charging me? I don't want to drop these guys but I'm left little choice it seems. Drop them and it may cost me, keep them on and lose my case, it will definitely cost me.
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Il Principe wrote:
    But if I've not signed an agreement then what can they do? To be fair I'm not sure they've done much except chase me for the CFA anyway.
    They will have kept sufficient records to evidence their interaction with you, on the balance of probabilities.

    How much time do you think they've spent?
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Maybe you need to hire a 3rd firm of lawyers to advise you on the best course of action.
    <a>road</a>
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Always Tyred wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    But if I've not signed an agreement then what can they do? To be fair I'm not sure they've done much except chase me for the CFA anyway.
    They will have kept sufficient records to evidence their interaction with you, on the balance of probabilities.

    How much time do you think they've spent?

    I honestly don't know. I met with them right at the start, but as far as I was aware things were on hold before I'd returned the CFA which I've not done. They've called and written me to chase this, but not given me any updates on how things are prgressing. I'm hoping that without a signed CFA they won't have done much at all.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    el_presidente wrote:
    Maybe you need to hire a 3rd firm of lawyers to advise you on the best course of action.

    :lol:
    :cry:

    As if getting dinged by a car wasn't frustrating enough.
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.
    <a>road</a>
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    el_presidente wrote:
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.

    Yeah, I did think long and hard, but ultimately I've had two operations, a busted up bike, ruined cycle clothing (Castelli, 'natch), pain and inconvenience, lost work etc so seemed sensible to try and extract some compensation - particularly as the dozy bint drove right into me and was clearly in the wrong.

    If the worst comes to the worst I will stick with the existing firm and tell the insurers to p1ss off.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    el_presidente wrote:
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.

    What hassle? See my post above - I'd be surprised if it costs IP anything. If his solicitors have incurred significant expense (which sounds unlikely) then they'll be more likely to be able to persuade his insurers that it would make sense for them to continue acting as they've already done the work. Anyway, if he hasn't signed anything (should have been provided with details of standard terms and conditions, fee structure etc.) then they won't have much of a case. They could arguably claim a verbal contract, but for the likely amounts involved they'd really be wasting their time by the sounds of it.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • Medders
    Medders Posts: 152
    Did you sign an engagement letter setting out the terms upon which they act for you? This is a requirement for proper instruction and the right to bill arises out of this. It sets out the rates and basis for charging so is fundamental and should be easily identifiable.

    Absent this document signed and without knowing the full background and details of your engagement/discussions they shouldnt be able to charge you.

    I would just ring them - apologise and say you wont be taking the matter forward with them. Happens quite regularly due to legal panels used by legal expenses insurers (who use bulk power to negotiate ludicrous fee level - but pay peanuts get monkeys)

    health warning: this is not legal advice - its been many years since I did this sort of stuff. More my missus field and she is in a right strop atm so not good time to ask sorry.
    Riding:
    Canyon Nerve AL9.9 2014
    Honda CBR600f 2013
    Condor Fratello 2010
    Cervelo RS 2009
    Specialized Rockhopper Pro 2008
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    MatHammond wrote:
    el_presidente wrote:
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.

    What hassle? See my post above - I'd be surprised if it costs IP anything. If his solicitors have incurred significant expense (which sounds unlikely) then they'll be more likely to be able to persuade his insurers that it would make sense for them to continue acting as they've already done the work. Anyway, if he hasn't signed anything (should have been provided with details of standard terms and conditions, fee structure etc.) then they won't have much of a case. They could arguably claim a verbal contract, but for the likely amounts involved they'd really be wasting their time by the sounds of it.
    Indeed - if no invoice appeared at the end of the financial year, its a sure thing!!
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    Always Tyred wrote:
    Indeed - if no invoice appeared at the end of the financial year, its a sure thing!!

    :lol: depends when year end is I guess...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Il Principe wrote:
    el_presidente wrote:
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.

    Yeah, I did think long and hard, but ultimately I've had two operations, a busted up bike, ruined cycle clothing (Castelli, 'natch), pain and inconvenience, lost work etc so seemed sensible to try and extract some compensation - particularly as the dozy bint drove right into me and was clearly in the wrong.

    If the worst comes to the worst I will stick with the existing firm and tell the insurers to p1ss off.

    fair enough. the last guy had a broken 5yo claud butler and a bruised knee ;)
    <a>road</a>
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    MatHammond wrote:
    el_presidente wrote:
    Serious point - this sort of hassle is one of the reasons I advise people to think long & hard before going down the legal route.

    What hassle? ...

    I think maybe I've got lawyer-phobia.

    I'll probably get wiped out by a High Court Judge on the way home tonight now.
    <a>road</a>
  • el_presidente
    el_presidente Posts: 1,963
    Medders wrote:

    health warning: this is not legal advice - its been many years since I did this sort of stuff. More my missus field and she is in a right strop atm so not good time to ask sorry.

    Are you married to Jacqui Smith?
    <a>road</a>
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Medders wrote:
    Did you sign an engagement letter setting out the terms upon which they act for you? This is a requirement for proper instruction and the right to bill arises out of this. It sets out the rates and basis for charging so is fundamental and should be easily identifiable.

    I've checked through my records and I'm pretty sure I haven't. Need to check at home as well, but I guess if they don't have this then I'm in the clear... fingers crossed.
  • Medders
    Medders Posts: 152
    el_presidente wrote:
    Medders wrote:

    health warning: this is not legal advice - its been many years since I did this sort of stuff. More my missus field and she is in a right strop atm so not good time to ask sorry.

    Are you married to Jacqui Smith?

    oh god. the thought of it. and I've just eaten!
    Riding:
    Canyon Nerve AL9.9 2014
    Honda CBR600f 2013
    Condor Fratello 2010
    Cervelo RS 2009
    Specialized Rockhopper Pro 2008
  • Zachariah
    Zachariah Posts: 782
    They could arguably claim a verbal contract

    Verbal contracts, as any lawyer will tell you, aren't worth the paper they're written on.
  • PBo
    PBo Posts: 2,493
    Il Principe wrote:
    Always Tyred wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    But if I've not signed an agreement then what can they do? To be fair I'm not sure they've done much except chase me for the CFA anyway.
    They will have kept sufficient records to evidence their interaction with you, on the balance of probabilities.

    How much time do you think they've spent?


    I honestly don't know. I met with them right at the start, but as far as I was aware things were on hold before I'd returned the CFA which I've not done. They've called and written me to chase this, but not given me any updates on how things are prgressing. I'm hoping that without a signed CFA they won't have done much at all.

    another not a lawyer caveat.....
    ....but sounds to me like you've had an initial scoping type meeting - a sales meeting from their point of view - and the next step is for you to sign up with them. Doesn't sound like they've done anything on the case.

    Initial consultations to size up the situation are usually free aren't they?
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Zachariah wrote:
    They could arguably claim a verbal contract

    Verbal contracts, as any lawyer will tell you, aren't worth the paper they're written on.
    No, but if it can be evidenced by subsequent behaviour consistent with the contract, you can have a problem.

    For example, your employer changes terms and conditions which you are then invited to sign. If you do not sign but conform to the terms and conditions for long enough, you can be held to have agreed to them.

    In this case, though, on the face of it, it seems that the ball is in IlP's court. I seem to remember something about offer, acceptance and consideration. If they've made an offer and there has been no consideration and/or no acceptance, there is no contract.

    I also dimly remember something about a written contract presiding where present.

    Where the hell is Spen when you need him? I don't often want for a pernickerty opinionated bug6er, but this is one of those times....
  • lost_in_thought
    lost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    Slightly different kettle of fish, but still relevant. You all know I'm not a lawyer...

    I got talked into meeting with a NWNF lawyer to discuss a personal injury claim. We talked for an hour, she told me I definitely had a case, and said she'd send me out an engagement letter to sign and return.

    I decided (eventually) that the case was utterly idiotic and I'd be ashamed of myself for pursuing it, and rang the lawyer to tell her as much.

    She said 'ok, well thanks for letting me know'. No bill, no nothing.

    I'd hope the same would be true in your case, IP.
    FCN 7/1
    Viner Maxima, Tifosi CK7, Giant Bowery, Old commuter.

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