ASL examples

tomb353

I've managed to get myself involved in an argument with my local council over the design of an ASL box they are painting on my commute. Basically its a two lane approach, but they've only created one entry point on the extreme left. The council highways guy is try to suggest that right turning cyclists should enter on the extreme left and then cross in front of two lanes of traffic to take up position for a right turn (yeah right...).

I seem to remember someone on this forum posting a google streetview link to an example of an ASL that has multiple cycle entry points, one for each lane. Can anyone point me in the direction of an example like this?

It just depresses me that these people are still making basic design errors like this and making crappy infrastructure even crappier.

tarquin_foxglove

Cycling England published some design guidelines

It has some examples of different lead in lanes & references to which Traffic Advisory Leaflet they came from.

alfablue

You can find lots on design guidance at Cycle England
http://www.dft.gov.uk/cyclingengland/en ... -planning/

And the CTC have examples of good practice (and it might be worth contacting the CTC and discussing with them),

and there is this

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... apter4.pdf

and this

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... apter5.pdf (see 5.3.13 on page 9, discusses central entry lanes)

choirboy

This one in Kensington has an entry that is not extreme left.

[Edit] Though I've just realised it's not actually an ASL though everyone treats it as such![/Edit]

UndercoverElephant

Here's one on my commute:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 2,,0,28.27

I'm not sure I like it, though. That's not me, by the way.

roundthebend

Here's an example of one I have to contend with, it doesn't have an entry point in the right hand lane for straight ahead or right turns.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 6,,0,23.81

I usually want to turn right here so end up doing exactly what your local council numpty suggests. I hate it.

tomb353

the problem with the example i'm dealing with is that there isn't enough room for a central entry lane. there isn't really enough room for any proper entry lane but they've done a token couple of feet of dashed lines on the left. If thats the solution then it needs to be done on every lane. I'm sure someone posted a london example of this not long ago.

waddlie

Here's an example of how not to do it. Did someone say left hook?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=stokes+croft&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Stokes+Croft,+Bristol,+Avon+BS1,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.464529,-2.589866&spn=0.003228,0.009559&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.464611,-2.589915&panoid=Rxu64bxLA6Gi6n-ymH_fMg&cbp=12,175.7,,0,5

waddlie

Fixed it..

Ian.B

But has any cyclist ever been fined or prosecuted for entering an ASL otherwise than by the approved entry point? It seems about as minor as you could get on the scale of road traffic offences. Some ASLs don't even have an entry point! I've never understood why there needs to be a designated entry point anyway.

spursn17

This one only has a few dotted lines, it's heading northbound at the junction of Gracechurch st and Fenchurch st in the City of London EC3, on my commute home.

How the hell do you get a link to a map location?

tarquin_foxglove

spursn17 wrote:

This one only has a few dotted lines, it's heading northbound at the junction of Gracechurch st and Fenchurch st in the City of London EC3, on my commute home.

How the hell do you get a link to a map location?

Like this?..............

spursn17

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

spursn17 wrote:

This one only has a few dotted lines, it's heading northbound at the junction of Gracechurch st and Fenchurch st in the City of London EC3, on my commute home.

How the hell do you get a link to a map location?

Like this?..............

Git

tomb353

many thanks you two, that is exactly what I was looking for, one entry point per lane which is probably the only workable solution at the site near my work.

I know what people mean with "why do ASL's need and entry point", but that is the law. Highway engineers should not be able to get away with designing facilities which can only be used illegally. If we want the police to enforce ASL stop lines, we need to be aware that they may also enforce them against cyclists.

tomb353

I've just notices that the entry point on my ASL overlaps a parking bay, someone should ge a medal for that one.

attica

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

Cycling England published some design guidelines

It has some examples of different lead in lanes & references to which Traffic Advisory Leaflet they came from.

cycling england wrote:

Typically, cycle lead-in lanes are positioned by the nearside kerb and the majority
of cyclists find this most comfortable.

I object to this, most cyclists might find it more comfortable but I think it's usually safer to filter on the right.

Frankly if I had my way I'd get rid of all cycle lanes and work on road users attitudes to accept that we are traffic too and not a special case to be segregated away, provide better training for cyclists.

To the OP, why don't you approach the ASL on the right? You don't have to stick to cycle lanes, they're advisory only.

Headhuunter

Attica wrote:

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

Cycling England published some design guidelines

It has some examples of different lead in lanes & references to which Traffic Advisory Leaflet they came from.

cycling england wrote:

Typically, cycle lead-in lanes are positioned by the nearside kerb and the majority
of cyclists find this most comfortable.

I object to this, most cyclists might find it more comfortable but I think it's usually safer to filter on the right.

Frankly if I had my way I'd get rid of all cycle lanes and work on road users attitudes to accept that we are traffic too and not a special case to be segregated away, provide better training for cyclists.

To the OP, why don't you approach the ASL on the right? You don't have to stick to cycle lanes, they're advisory only.

Absolutely agree, most cycle lanes and ASLs are completely pointless wastes of green paint (or blue in the case of the cycle "superhighways,which appear to be cycle lanes as before but a different colour). Save all the money wasted on pointless cycle lanes which start and stop at random and instead invest in filter traffic lights at major junctions which have a phase for cycles, just as there are pedestrian lights and phases for pedestrians. Junctions appear to be the most dangerous spots for cyclists with HGVs turning etc, so why not make these junctions far safer and possibly help to avoid RLJ-ing with cycle specific traffic lights? Trouble is slapping an bit of "advisory" green or blue paint on the road is far cheaper and involves less hassle for councils, saves them actually thinking about cyclists properly but allows them to tick the "cyclist" box.

Specialized Needs

Attica wrote:

[snip...] I object to this, most cyclists might find it more comfortable but I think it's usually safer to filter on the right.

So, you don't disagree with their wording, you disagree with somethiing different - the existence of cycle lanes. They probably chose their wording carefully to avoid saying it was "safer" on the left.

Attica wrote:

Frankly if I had my way I'd get rid of all cycle lanes and work on road users attitudes to accept that we are traffic too and not a special case to be segregated away, provide better training for cyclists.

+1 but some people prefer the idea for the likes of the inexperienced cyclist. I acknowledge those people's point, but disagree.

Attica wrote:

To the OP, why don't you approach the ASL on the right? You don't have to stick to cycle lanes, they're advisory only.

I guesss (and I may be wrong) that the OP wants a way to filter into the box legally after the lights are red. Crossing a solid stop line is illegal (IIRC) for all vehicles, not just motorised ones (but presumably not for pedestrians). Putting aside the question of filtering (it is a personal safety judgement and seems to be accepted/legal within certain bounds), I applaud the desire to 'do things right' - and to ensure that the system is set up to make 'doing it right' simpler and safer.

I would like to see the regs covering ASLs (actually, no, I've better use for my time than pondoring impeneterable legalease). I don't know them. Not all solid lines are a prohibition for bicycles, you just have to remember compulsory cycle lanes - a discriminating filter of a solid white line that legally permits bicycles across the line, but not motorised traffic (again, I've not read the regs that set this up). Why can ASL regs not be drawn up the same way?

attica

At the risk of being told to "get a room"

Headhuunter wrote:

Trouble is slapping an bit of "advisory" green or blue paint on the road is far cheaper and involves less hassle for councils, saves them actually thinking about cyclists properly but allows them to tick the "cyclist" box.

Amen to that

attica

Specialized Needs wrote:

+1 but some people prefer the idea for the likes of the inexperienced cyclist. I acknowledge those people's point, but disagree.

Absolutely, that's where money on cyclist training needs to be spent.

Specialized Needs wrote:

Why can ASL regs not be drawn up the same way?

+1
I must admit, I didn't realise that entering across the solid line was against the law and as such break this rule on a regular basis, I've never known of anybody who has been cautioned against it in any way - doesn't make it any less illegal though. Damn, my righteous indignation at RLJers is being undermined!

tomb353

attica, i'm also a fan of overtaking on the right and generally cross ASL's whichever way I please. However as this one is right outside a police station I'm pissed off that the highway people put me in a position where the choice is not to use it or break the law in full view of the police on a daily basis.

As this road is a 20mph zone I don't see any need for a cycle lane. They have removed a traffic island to create the ASL, but rather than creating a proper well thought through lead in lane to the ASL they've chosen to widen the two main lanes and stick a tiny 2 foot leadin which overlaps the parking bay on the left:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 4,,0,15.63

chuckcork

tomb353 wrote:

If we want the police to enforce ASL stop lines, we need to be aware that they may also enforce them against cyclists.

To do so they would have to start enforcing them against motorists. More than once I've stopped on a two lane road within the ASL or before the stop line (if no ASL) and the car next to me has been ahead of me, in some cases creeping forward until they are a whole car length.

I don't doubt we've all seen the same which would collectively add up to tens of thousands of traffic offences witnessed every year, but how many of us could say we've seen Police actually taking note and stopping the driver and giving them a ticket?

Anyone at all?

Being prosecuted for failing to enter a ASL box is I think as unlikely as being spotted by the police for using a mobile phone while driving and then prosecuted with the maximum fine resulting. After all there are no real numbers under zero...

tomb353

not only do the police not enforce ASL's (drivers should get 6 points) they regularly breach them themselves on my commute.

Salsamander

tomb353 wrote:

not only do the police not enforce ASL's (drivers should get 6 points) they regularly breach them themselves on my commute.

Sadly true of my commute too

attica

Been pondering this thread for a day or two.

On my commute I encounter many ASL's like this one.

I think that may explain my lack of awareness viv-a-vis the rules on entering an ASL

EDIT If you "move" away from the lights the next shot shows that the line under the Jaguar is solid

thistle_

Here is our ASL (the one and only I think).
Left entry only I'm afraid though, although the white line is almost a whole metre from the kerb.