Wealth creators
Comments
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Stone Glider wrote:In a book first published in !946, entitled The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World in the Age of Phillip II, Fernand Braudel describes the Spanish merchants who had risked all to enrich themselves in the "New World". As time passed, the next generation contented themselves with providing the finance and contacts to effect that wealth creation. The following generation, with little relevant skills nor appetite for risk faded away and were overtaken by more dynamic entities. And all the time Spain pursued expensive, vainglorious wars it could not afford.
Draw your own conclusions.
So what are you saying?
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We are F*cked.The older I get the faster I was0
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Thought so.0
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Alternatively, we just need to revise our expectations.
Spain didn't stop happening, it just got rather poor and irrelevant, like Greece after its empire faded, Rome after its and France in the 20th Century. Machu Pichu, Ulan Bator, any number of cities along the Silk Road, all civilisations that rose and fell.
We are probably going to become poor and irrelevant. The trick is not to kill each other in the scramble to pretend that it is not happening.0 -
Some hope!0
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Stone Glider wrote:In a book first published in !946, entitled The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World in the Age of Phillip II, Fernand Braudel describes the Spanish merchants who had risked all to enrich themselves in the "New World". As time passed, the next generation contented themselves with providing the finance and contacts to effect that wealth creation. The following generation, with little relevant skills nor appetite for risk faded away and were overtaken by more dynamic entities. And all the time Spain pursued expensive, vainglorious wars it could not afford.
Draw your own conclusions.
OK, my conclusion is that history is just one thing after another.'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.0 -
pneumatic wrote:Alternatively, we just need to revise our expectations.
Spain didn't stop happening, it just got rather poor and irrelevant, like Greece after its empire faded, Rome after its and France in the 20th Century. Machu Pichu, Ulan Bator, any number of cities along the Silk Road, all civilisations that rose and fell.
We are probably going to become poor and irrelevant. The trick is not to kill each other in the scramble to pretend that it is not happening.
France does OK and didn't the silk route link Europe to China? The economies at either end are hardly good examples of broken economies. Seems to me people have been writing off the UK since the end of Empire but it hasn't really happened.'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.0 -
This country still has the 6 th largest manufacturing base on the planet.bagpuss0
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Yes Mr Darling, despite having no mandate to do so, has just bet anything between £8-43bn of our money on the eurozone bail-out...0
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passout wrote:pneumatic wrote:Spain didn't stop happening, it just got rather poor and irrelevant, like Greece after its empire faded, Rome after its and France in the 20th Century. Machu Pichu, Ulan Bator, any number of cities along the Silk Road, all civilisations that rose and fell.
France does OK and didn't the silk route link Europe to China? The economies at either end are hardly good examples of broken economies.
Yes, but there are a lot of cities along the silk route which have not had such a good time recently.0 -
Eurozone mickey mices
Apparently the Germans are unhappy.
That bodes well then My pen won't write on the screen0 -
Foreign owned but bought with money provided by us! That is international finance and the City of London at work.The older I get the faster I was0
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BikingBernie wrote:
Except that the capitalist system is based not on the idea of doing what is morally 'right', but selfishly doing whatever will maximise profits for minority interests, such as shareholders.nolf wrote:I think it is both morally (and clearly economically) wrong to prevent individuals acting in the way that they feel is right.
minority interests? like the pension funds of tens of thousands of public sector workers?0 -
Surely adding value to raw materials is wealth creation. We became Great by having a fantastic manufacturing industry. Sadly that legacy was torn appart through the Thatcher years and now we are up the swanny.
Dont pretend that this can be replaced by tourism, Greece, Spain and Portugal are proof of that.
Also dont pretend that manufacturing cannot be the mainstay of successful economies, Germany, Japan and now Taiwan have fantastic standards of living and pay proper wages to their manufacturing workers. Overseas companies (Nissan, Toyota, Honda) all make cars here paying workers well. The difference between them and British car firms is that they know the value of investment were it matters, not taking a quick dividend.
Thats why I hate Cameron and all the rest of the children of Thatcher too.0 -
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stigofthedump wrote:Surely adding value to raw materials is wealth creation. We became Great by having a fantastic manufacturing industry. Sadly that legacy was torn appart through the Thatcher years and now we are up the swanny.
Dont pretend that this can be replaced by tourism, Greece, Spain and Portugal are proof of that.
Also dont pretend that manufacturing cannot be the mainstay of successful economies, Germany, Japan and now Taiwan have fantastic standards of living and pay proper wages to their manufacturing workers. Overseas companies (Nissan, Toyota, Honda) all make cars here paying workers well. The difference between them and British car firms is that they know the value of investment were it matters, not taking a quick dividend.
Thats why I hate Cameron and all the rest of the children of Thatcher too.
Manufacturing can be the mainstay of a successful economy, it just doesn't have to be. And there are many more alternatives than tourism. The mainstay of a successful economy is 'doing lots of stuff which other people will pay for'. That might be manufacturing LCD tellys, but it might also be creating programmes that people want to watch on them.
Thatcher might have had many bad points, but she didn't destroy the manufacturing industrial base in this country: the fact that other countries started doing it cheaper and better did that! To me the trick to prevent us 'being up the swanny' is to make sure that we're not over-exposed in any one area - and that would include manufacturing.0 -
Thatcher and her accolites in industry did destroy our manufacturing base by starving it of investment. The Germans and the Japanese pay thier workers just as much as we did, but they also invested in their manufacturing methods and plant. We put all our eggs in the basket of 'The City' hoping that the money would trickle down to us peasants. Sadly they spent all thier money in Stuttgart, Munich, Marranello and Tokyo.
We have proved time and again to have both the Manufacturing ability and the design know how to beat the rest of the world, but not the investment.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:passout wrote:
OK, my conclusion is that history is just one thing after another.
Ah, but does history have a narrative?
If so, who tells it? :P
Pfft.
Narrative History hasn't been fashionable since Travelyan."I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
stigofthedump wrote:Thatcher and her accolites in industry did destroy our manufacturing base by starving it of investment. The Germans and the Japanese pay thier workers just as much as we did, but they also invested in their manufacturing methods and plant. We put all our eggs in the basket of 'The City' hoping that the money would trickle down to us peasants. Sadly they spent all thier money in Stuttgart, Munich, Marranello and Tokyo.
We have proved time and again to have both the Manufacturing ability and the design know how to beat the rest of the world, but not the investment.
Maybe. I wasn't a taxpayer at the time, but I'd have been more than a little upset at any government pouring my taxes into the likes of British Leyland. Should the government be 'investing' my taxes into ensuring that we have a strong presence in the global airline industry, for example. And, if it should, would British Airways be the place to put it?
There's a fine line between investment and pouring good money after bad!0 -
rake wrote:
get out. its mainly foreign owned.bagpusscp wrote:This country still has the 6 th largest manufacturing base on the planet.
Some maybe but it is still jobs .R&D which we are masters of.Small and medium business is a massive part of our economy.Don't knock it.
Who here own British products in their home..Loads here.bagpuss0 -
nolf wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:passout wrote:
OK, my conclusion is that history is just one thing after another.
Ah, but does history have a narrative?
If so, who tells it? :P
Pfft.
Narrative History hasn't been fashionable since Travelyan.
Hayden White's my man.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:nolf wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:passout wrote:
OK, my conclusion is that history is just one thing after another.
Ah, but does history have a narrative?
If so, who tells it? :P
Pfft.
Narrative History hasn't been fashionable since Travelyan.
Hayden White's my man.
Ahh haven't come across im yet
Still working my way through Sterns collection of 19th C. peeps, and Bloch's 'The Historians Craft'."I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
rake wrote:
get out. its mainly foreign owned.bagpusscp wrote:This country still has the 6 th largest manufacturing base on the planet.
National Statistics Online:
Income
UK earnings on investment abroad increased by £4.4 billion to £45.2 billion, primarily due to higher earnings on direct investment abroad. Foreign earnings on investment in the UK decreased by £0.6 billion to £34.7 billion - this was due to lower earnings on other investment, which were partly offset by increases in earnings in foreign direct investment and portfolio investment."I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
nolf wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:nolf wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:passout wrote:
OK, my conclusion is that history is just one thing after another.
Ah, but does history have a narrative?
If so, who tells it? :P
Pfft.
Narrative History hasn't been fashionable since Travelyan.
Hayden White's my man.
Ahh haven't come across im yet
Still working my way through Sterns collection of 19th C. peeps, and Bloch's 'The Historians Craft'.
Have fun with that. It's pretty grim.
Check out White's wiki entry.0 -
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1861801.stmnolf wrote:rake wrote:
get out. its mainly foreign owned.bagpusscp wrote:This country still has the 6 th largest manufacturing base on the planet.
National Statistics Online:
Income
UK earnings on investment abroad increased by £4.4 billion to £45.2 billion, primarily due to higher earnings on direct investment abroad. Foreign earnings on investment in the UK decreased by £0.6 billion to £34.7 billion - this was due to lower earnings on other investment, which were partly offset by increases in earnings in foreign direct investment and portfolio investment.0 -
Unless I have read it wrong this data is 10 years out of date :?:
Reading the last sentance,I suppose due to low inflation we have almost seen a wage freeze.How many here would take a pay cut to get our wage levels to that of China :?:
Out cut in the working week would maybe create more jobs. Is Germany is an example of how this can work well :?:bagpuss0 -
All socio-economic data is out of date isn't it? Not by a decade granted.'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.0
