Waaay OT: Brown - what am I missing?

rolf_f

Eau Rouge wrote:

I really don't understand this immigration issue at all, none of the numbers are of concern, and how many people can actually claim to have both parents and all four grandparents be born in the UK.

Certainly not me. Of course, the irony is that most of the immigrant hating bigots live in the areas where there aren't many immigrants. Whether that is because the actual presence of immigrants reduces those attitudes or simply that the immigrants have better taste than to go to such places is hard to say.

Loads of Poles in Leeds - all those I've dealt with have been really nice.

TailWindHome wrote:

I'm confused now

Is it dem immigrants or dem public sector workers?

Bigotry knows no bounds - personally I hate everyone

cjcp

Always Tyred wrote:

I'm alright jack, I can hop in the car and head north to somewhere spacious, or south to somewhere spacious, but I find the SE, where I'm from, intolerable.

.... ooh. Gordon is on telly right now. He appears to have entered a gurning competition. Oh, no, that's an ironic smile. Or wind.

I think the SE has overtaken Holland as the most densely part of western Europe. It's choc-a-block down here, I tell you. You go out to the garden centre and, as soon as you've gone, someone parks in your space, then you've got to park down the road when you get back. I blame Brussels and all that free movement of people stuff.

cjcp

Did Nick Clegg get dressed in the dark?

greg66_tri_v2.0

cjcp wrote:

Did Nick Clegg get dressed in the dark?

Is it just me, or is Gordo really really creepy when he smiles?

He looks like a man stricken by a sudden bout of rictus.

rjsterry

I think you've slightly missed my point (probably didn't make it very well), I know the UK is very densely populated, especially in the SE, but it's still possible o go for a walk on Sunday morning within the M25 and only see one or two other people.

According to Wikipedia (ahem) Greater London has a population density of 4863/km2, which is very similar to Madrid, but way behind New York, Tokyo and Moscow. Places like Cairo and Delhi have mind-boggling densities of around 30,000/km2.

Anyway, I don't think people per square kilometre is what people are on about when they talk about Britain being crowded. I think it's actually a question of population rising faster than public services can be scaled up. For example it might take 5 yrs from initiation to the first pupils moving in - far slower than the population in a particular area might increase. There was a good Panorama (I think) on this a while back looking at Boston in Lincs, and the number of foreign agricultural workers.

rjsterry

Greg66 wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Did Nick Clegg get dressed in the dark?

Is it just me, or is Gordo really really creepy when he smiles?

He looks like a man stricken by a sudden bout of rictus.

No. Better off sticking with grumpy or dour.

alfablue

Well, that debate was streets ahead of the previous two: 3 factors, increasing desperation amongst the leaders, superior BBC production, and Dimbleby's stewardship was several cuts above the rest.

cjcp

rjsterry wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Did Nick Clegg get dressed in the dark?

Is it just me, or is Gordo really really creepy when he smiles?

He looks like a man stricken by a sudden bout of rictus.

No. Better off sticking with grumpy or dour.

That smile. Very creepy.

Creepy or dour?

Eau Rouge

cjcp wrote:

I think the SE has overtaken Holland as the most densely part of western Europe. It's choc-a-block down here, I tell you. You go out to the garden centre and, as soon as you've gone, someone parks in your space, then you've got to park down the road when you get back. I blame Brussels and all that free movement of people stuff.

Now it's getting subjective again, and you should start letting the Malta's and Gibraltar's and Monaco's back into the numbers game. The SE is at about 450-odd people per km^2, about a third of the value for the conurbation most Dutch people actually live in.

The BBC had in interesting set of numbers last week in one of their election blog thingamajigs. Apparently, comparing 2007 with 1997 (so a little before the recession) then the number of British people available to work had gone up by 330,000(ish) while the number of British people in work had gone up by 380,000(ish). Immigrant workers were up by 2,4million, with 1.7million of them actually working. More people working in an economy is a good thing, and there simply wasn't enough of an increase in the British work force to fill all the jobs the economy could create in that time.

ketsbaia

Always Tyred wrote:

To all those who gripe about boundary changes.... its not new and Labour didn't invent it. Yes they are as bad and self serving as each other.

Innit. See also manipulating unemployment figures. Anyone else remember the YOP/YTS?

"I've got this great idea for wiping more than two million people of the official jobless stats, Mags."

N. Tebbit (Con) 1981.


I dunno. I think the lot are a bunch of grade a wnakers, but to castigate the current crop for being 'economical with the truth' (remember where that came from, PM-pickers?) is a bit rich. As is having a go at them for mismanaging the economy. Let's face it. They all cock it up in one way or another. What we're quibbling about/voting for here is merely to whom they cock it up in favour of.

E2a: Does anyone here cycle in from Foolfosters?

prj45

el_presidente wrote:

It is a fact that Labour have presided over an increase

I love people who state FACTS.

so it was labour that signed up to European free movement of labour in 1992 was it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freed ... pean_Union)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

beverick

Eau Rouge wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

........and how many people can actually claim to have both parents and all four grandparents be born in the UK.....

I can actually. What's more my grandparents parents and grandparents were born in England in either Yorkshire (17), Worcestershire (7), Lincolnshire (3), Oxfordshire (3, or West Berkshire as the area was at the time) and Lancashire (1 - nb every family has a black sheep).

Bob

MadammeMarie

Always Tyred wrote:

In a rare piece of honesty, a politician has branded an ignorant bigot an ignorant bigot for appearing to blame pretty much all of the woes of the nation on Eastern Europeans, and the politician is being crucified for it.

What am I missing here? The woman essentially said, "Pensions, blah, blah, tax, blah blah, tuition fees - and what about 'em eastern Europeans - and the deficit, blah..."

Go back a couple of steps - please could someone fill in the steps between tax policy and them Eastern Europeans? Why isn't ANYONE in the press pointing out that GB was in fact correct? If you substitute "Indians, "Jews" or any other minority into her rant, its clearly bigoted.

Is is okay 'cos they is white?

Is it okay because so many people think that way and they all vote?

You'll note that the other parties are being very quiet about this and aren't exactly supporting this poor lady.

What happened:

Gillian Duffy: And these Eastern Europeans, where are they flocking in from?
Brown: There are also millions of Brits living in other countries in Europe, did you know that?

What should have happened:

Gillian Duffy: And these Eastern Europeans, where are they flocking in from?
Brown: From Eastern Europe, you stupid c....! Go get yourself a world map!

Maybe the reason they are being quiet about this it's because it was just a little incident blown out of propportiion by a hostile press with their own agenda, but there's not much to it. It was a private conversation accidentally caught with an open mic. That's all. It's not that he lost his temper or anything.

The Rookie

Gordon Brown smiling, to me, looks worryingly like Batman's Joker, but then that smile is painted on.......as well?

The smile outside Ms Duffy's house was particularily forced, and crazyly inapropriate, the one time he could have gone back to his 'grumpy' old image and it been better than a Blairesque smile and he still couldn't get the forced smile off his face.

She raised a valid concern to her, and one that is a concern to many, all be it in a somewhat inarticulate manner (she's not a groomed politician after all) and to call her a bigot was a disgrace, maybe if he'd said it under his breath, but he didn't, he used it to describe her to someone else. One could argue she had a case for slander.

I note that Ms Duffy has sold her story to the Mail on Sunday, as a somewhat (sic) Tory paper I can't see it being full of glowing praise for Gordon - can you?

Simon

Eau Rouge

The Beginner wrote:

She raised a valid concern to her

She raised a concern. That doesn't make it valid.

kurako

Here's my 2-cents on the leadership race.

Gordon Brown is an intelligent, honest man who clearly has problems on the campaign trail due to grumpiness and an aversion to ars*-kissing.

David Cameron is a sycophant and a weasel who is well practiced in saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. He is highly practiced in the finer points of ars*-kissing.

Nick Clegg seems like a nice bloke but the Lib Dems aren't going to win so he can promise whatever he likes. He'll never have to deliver.

No prizes for guessing which way I'm leaning. LOL!

The Running Man

I'm neither condoning nor criticising Gordon Brown for his response or the woman for her fears but .......

During the 30's the right wing press in Germany were ruthlessly and relentlessly vitreolic about the Jews & gypsies and their impact on the economic wellbeing of the country.

They created an atmosphere of fear and hatred in the general populous that these ethnic groups were to blame for the country's woes and it ultimately facilitated the ability of the Nazis to manipulate it to their own ends.

The climate of tolerance is changing once more. Who would have thought we could once again have ethnic cleansing on our European doorstep in Yugoslavia. Has Srebrenicia taught us nothing.

It is not acceptable to say it couldn't happen in the UK.

MadammeMarie

The Running Man wrote:

I'm neither condoning nor criticising Gordon Brown for his response or the woman for her fears but .......

During the 30's the right wing press in Germany were ruthlessly and relentlessly vitreolic about the Jews & gypsies and their impact on the economic wellbeing of the country.

They created an atmosphere of fear and hatred in the general populous that these ethnic groups were to blame for the country's woes and it ultimately facilitated the ability of the Nazis to manipulate it to their own ends.

The climate of tolerance is changing once more. Who would have thought we could once again have ethnic cleansing on our European doorstep in Yugoslavia. Has Srebrenicia taught us nothing.

It is not acceptable to say it couldn't happen in the UK.

+1. Well said.

W1

Kurako wrote:

Here's my 2-cents on the leadership race.

Gordon Brown is an intelligent, honest man who clearly has problems on the campaign trail due to grumpiness and an aversion to ars*-kissing.

David Cameron is a sycophant and a weasel who is well practiced in saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. He is highly practiced in the finer points of ars*-kissing.

Nick Clegg seems like a nice bloke but the Lib Dems aren't going to win so he can promise whatever he likes. He'll never have to deliver.

No prizes for guessing which way I'm leaning. LOL!

Brown was quite happy to be seen ar*e kissing - it was in private that he revealed his true self again. He was cross because he didn't have some pandering labour fool put in front of him to fawn for the cameras. He's neither intelligent nor honest, he's a self serving hypocrite like the rest of them.

shoulder_of_orion

Didn't he get in trouble for calling her big titted?

bigmat

Kurako wrote:

Here's my 2-cents on the leadership race.

Gordon Brown is an intelligent, honest man who clearly has problems on the campaign trail due to grumpiness and an aversion to ars*-kissing.

David Cameron is a sycophant and a weasel who is well practiced in saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. He is highly practiced in the finer points of ars*-kissing.

Nick Clegg seems like a nice bloke but the Lib Dems aren't going to win so he can promise whatever he likes. He'll never have to deliver.

No prizes for guessing which way I'm leaning. LOL!

Good to hear it, Tooting is a Tory target marginal I believe, regardless of where you stand on the leaders the current Labour MP there seems top notch and I would be sorry to see him lose out.

MonkeyMonster

beverick wrote:

Eau Rouge wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

........and how many people can actually claim to have both parents and all four grandparents be born in the UK.....

I can actually. What's more my grandparents parents and grandparents were born in England in either Yorkshire (17), Worcestershire (7), Lincolnshire (3), Oxfordshire (3, or West Berkshire as the area was at the time) and Lancashire (1 - nb every family has a black sheep).

Bob

mothers side NI - which I believe falls under your UK and dad's st albans and local area. that I was born in scotland confuses the issue
but welcome back DDD

lost_in_thought

DonDaddyD wrote:

The news report I saw was heavily edited. She did seem just to only mention Eastern Europeans.

So the question has to asked....

Are 'we' blaming Eastern Europeans for the fact that 'we' can't get jobs now? I must be out of touch, I'm still blaming Blacks and Irish. LIT you're usually up with all this?

Wait.... is that a snide dig?

If so, chapeau, more subtle than your usual brick through the window with a name and address approach.

I don't do political discussions around election time.

wildmoustache

Kurako wrote:

Here's my 2-cents on the leadership race.

Gordon Brown is an intelligent, honest man who clearly has problems on the campaign trail due to grumpiness and an aversion to ars*-kissing.

David Cameron is a sycophant and a weasel who is well practiced in saying whatever he thinks people want to hear. He is highly practiced in the finer points of ars*-kissing.

Nick Clegg seems like a nice bloke but the Lib Dems aren't going to win so he can promise whatever he likes. He'll never have to deliver.

No prizes for guessing which way I'm leaning. LOL!

Brown is not an honest man LOL. He's power-obsessed and will stop at little to hold onto power. His record has been one of deception and distortion, be it spin, hiding the impact of his policies, refusing to take responsibility when things go wrong and so on.

kurako

Funny how people see things differently. Here's how I imagine it going if she was talking with DC.

Gillian Duffy: And these Eastern Europeans, where are they flocking in from?
Cameron: You're absolultely correct to be worried Gillian. We beilieve that immgration has grown out of control. That's why the Conservative Party has made a pledge to limit net migration to much lower levels than under the current administration.

wildmoustache

yeah, I imagine that too.

I think the Conseratives should have given an estimated level of non-EU immigration which they'd find acceptable over the economic cycle - e.g. 1/3rd of 1997 -2010 level of immigration from outside the EU.

Their policy is not ridiculous, but some of the public and media seem to think it is a weakness not to have set the number in stone :roll:

kurako

Anyway, it's a bit of an emotive subject for me. My grandfather was Polish and my g/f is American. If it wasn't for immigration I wouldn't be here neither would my super cute baby daughter!

I also firmly believe that England would be a very depressing place if there was no-one here apart from Daily-Mail-reading-died-in-the-wool-tories.

wildmoustache

Kurako wrote:

Anyway, it's a bit of an emotive subject for me. My grandfather was Polish and my g/f is American. If it wasn't for immigration I wouldn't be here neither would my super cute baby daughter!

I also firmly believe that England would be a very depressing place if there was no-one here apart from Daily-Mail-reading-died-in-the-wool-tories.

Yeah, I agree with your last statement. The UK is a relatively tolerant place of immigration and different lifestyles. I think a large part of anti-immigration used to be about not liking/fear of other cultures, but now I think it's more about pressure on scarce resources - and I have some sympathy with that view ... albeit in some of the estates where the views often seem strongest it's all cash someone else has earned anyway LOL!

bigmat

wildmoustache wrote:

yeah, I imagine that too.

I think the Conseratives should have given an estimated level of non-EU immigration which they'd find acceptable over the economic cycle - e.g. 1/3rd of 1997 -2010 level of immigration from outside the EU.

Their policy is not ridiculous, but some of the public and media seem to think it is a weakness not to have set the number in stone :roll:

Its a load of old b******s really, like most of the parties' policies. 80% of immigration is within the EU and none of the parties propose doing anything about that, not even prepared to mention it (until Clegg, finally, did last night). Its this immigration that the man on the street seems to be concerned about - see Mrs Duffy's comments - and all 3 parties refused to address it.

Likewise, none of the parties are prepared to properly discuss the economic issues (the Tories did refer to an "age of austerity" but swiftly backtracked).

Brown's arguments on tax credits are a red-herring - nobody earning £50k+ needs a tax credit, this is exactly the sort of saving we must make. Similarly, Cameron bleating about the "jobs tax" nearly had me putting my foot through the TV screen. Its not a jobs tax, its national insurance. Its been around for years (since the 40s?), the Tories aren't proposing to abolish it and never have done, in fact I think they are actually proposing their own increase just not as much as Labour, so STFU man!

To be honest they all seem complicit in spinning the same old lies and its all a bit depressing. One thing I am sure of is that George Osborne will be a disaster as chancellor. I give him months not years in that job. Truly this is an election to lose if ever there was, but I guess the Tories need it as 4 straight defeats is too much, Brown needs it on a personal level as he's built his world around the job, and the Liberals are just opportunistically looking for a way in and a change to the voting system.

wildmoustache

MatHammond wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

yeah, I imagine that too.

I think the Conseratives should have given an estimated level of non-EU immigration which they'd find acceptable over the economic cycle - e.g. 1/3rd of 1997 -2010 level of immigration from outside the EU.

Their policy is not ridiculous, but some of the public and media seem to think it is a weakness not to have set the number in stone :roll:

Its a load of old b******s really, like most of the parties' policies. 80% of immigration is within the EU and none of the parties propose doing anything about that, not even prepared to mention it (until Clegg, finally, did last night). Its this immigration that the man on the street seems to be concerned about - see Mrs Duffy's comments - and all 3 parties refused to address it.

Likewise, none of the parties are prepared to properly discuss the economic issues (the Tories did refer to an "age of austerity" but swiftly backtracked).

Brown's arguments on tax credits are a red-herring - nobody earning £50k+ needs a tax credit, this is exactly the sort of saving we must make. Similarly, Cameron bleating about the "jobs tax" nearly had me putting my foot through the TV screen. Its not a jobs tax, its national insurance. Its been around for years (since the 40s?), the Tories aren't proposing to abolish it and never have done, in fact I think they are actually proposing their own increase just not as much as Labour, so STFU man!

To be honest they all seem complicit in spinning the same old lies and its all a bit depressing. One thing I am sure of is that George Osborne will be a disaster as chancellor. I give him months not years in that job. Truly this is an election to lose if ever there was, but I guess the Tories need it as 4 straight defeats is too much, Brown needs it on a personal level as he's built his world around the job, and the Liberals are just opportunistically looking for a way in and a change to the voting system.

From the perspective of Mrs Duffy, the large Eastern European influx is a Labour f'up, and she is right that it could have been avoided through transitional arrangements (which Mr Cameron proposes). Remember that many such people came here to work because it was a relatively easy place to come where there wer jobs ... we didn't have to have an open door.