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  • AnotherTom
    AnotherTom Posts: 4
    The club has many, many members but - and as might be expected - many more people enjoy the benefits of the club than help out. Most of the time this is fine but when we want to put on events - be they racing, training or social - we find that it is usually the same small number of people willing to volunteer.

    This unwillingness of many members to spare free time to give back something to the club makes organising events much more difficult and stressful for organisers, which puts at risk events (indeed some road racing events - not DP ones - have been cancelled this year for lack of marshalls), and puts people off organising events.

    It is difficult for those of us that do volunteer and run the club to understand an approach that sees the club in the same light as a commercial organisation, ie all one has to do is pay the "fee" and then everything else is done for you and there is no further obligation to do anything. Such a stance surely ignores (insults?) the hard work done by volunteers - including the leaders on the Saturday rides.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    snipz wrote:
    There are p-l-e-n-t-y of people who ride with DP who race frequently who would be better targets.

    Why? They already lend a hand when it comes to the running of the club and it's promotions e.g. Crystal Palace, SERRL and Surrey League Races, that also benefit riders from other clubs from across the South East.

    None of these things mean anything to people who don't race. Dulwich Paragon is club which means many different things to many different people. To you it clearly means race training and racing. To me it doesn't. Why should I be forced to marshal races which I have zero interest in?
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    AnotherTom wrote:
    The club has many, many members but - and as might be expected - many more people enjoy the benefits of the club than help out. Most of the time this is fine but when we want to put on events - be they racing, training or social - we find that it is usually the same small number of people willing to volunteer.

    This unwillingness of many members to spare free time to give back something to the club makes organising events much more difficult and stressful for organisers, which puts at risk events (indeed some road racing events - not DP ones - have been cancelled this year for lack of marshalls), and puts people off organising events.

    It is difficult for those of us that do volunteer and run the club to understand an approach that sees the club in the same light as a commercial organisation, ie all one has to do is pay the "fee" and then everything else is done for you and there is no further obligation to do anything. Such a stance surely ignores (insults?) the hard work done by volunteers - including the leaders on the Saturday rides.

    I can see your point, however a club like Dulwich Paragon is so large it has many members with very different requirements. If certain people wish to put on and manage events then that's very laudable, however many people are happy simply attending social/club rides on an ad hoc basis. Perhaps people who regularly attend these club rides should offer to help out in managing them and I have led the Saturday fast group in the past, however many rides like the Sunday training ride simply take place without a whole lot of organisation and that is all that I require from DP. I am not interested in racing.
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  • AnotherTom
    AnotherTom Posts: 4
    I think we know you're not interested in racing HH but there's more to running the club then that.

    "Perhaps people who regularly attend these club rides should offer to help out in managing them"

    Yes, perhaps. How do you think the club can ensure that happens and each ride is led safely? Your responses seem to suggest this magically happens. it doesn't. Someone is usually working quite hard. (The Sunday rides being an exception; the Saturday and Wednesday rides certainly not.)

    Again, I'm struggling to understand a point of view that could be read as "I'll regularly gain from other people's organisation and work but there's no reciprocal oblgation, unless it suits me".
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    AnotherTom wrote:
    I think we know you're not interested in racing HH but there's more to running the club then that.

    "Perhaps people who regularly attend these club rides should offer to help out in managing them"

    Yes, perhaps. How do you think the club can ensure that happens and each ride is led safely? Your responses seem to suggest this magically happens. it doesn't. Someone is usually working quite hard. (The Sunday rides being an exception; the Saturday and Wednesday rides certainly not.)

    Again, I'm struggling to understand a point of view that could be read as "I'll regularly gain from other people's organisation and work but there's no reciprocal oblgation, unless it suits me".

    As I said, I have led and helped with the Saturday fast group in the past, I simply don't see the point in trying to force people on these rides into marshalling at events etc. The aggressive attitude of previous posters doesn't make me any more inclined to do it either. As I have pointed out cycle clubs, including DP, mean many things to many people. If you take part in events then of course you should lend a hand in organisation, or at least offer, however to me, DP means simply Saturday and Sunday club runs and a chinwag afterwards. I require no more from the club and I don't see why I should be coerced aggressively into taking on any more than this.
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  • snipz
    snipz Posts: 85
    Dulwich Paragon is club which means many different things to many different people. To you it clearly means race training and racing. To me it doesn't. Why should I be forced to marshal races which I have zero interest in?

    Ok... lets say I'm on a social/club ride and other riders from the club are riding three abreast, jumping reds, etc but I've got zero interest in the managing/organizing these. What happens then?
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    snipz wrote:
    Dulwich Paragon is club which means many different things to many different people. To you it clearly means race training and racing. To me it doesn't. Why should I be forced to marshal races which I have zero interest in?

    Ok... lets say I'm on a social/club ride and other riders from the club are riding three abreast, jumping reds, etc but I've got zero interest in the managing/organizing these. What happens then?

    As I've said, I have helped manage the Saturday fast ride in the past, but that is the limit of my involvement. OK, let's take a step back, other than race marshalling and the aforementioned management and organisation of the club runs, what is it that you want me to get involved in?
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  • AnotherTom
    AnotherTom Posts: 4
    "other than race marshalling and the aforementioned management and organisation of the club runs, what is it that you want me to get involved in?"

    I don't know what side of the bed you got up from this morning, but it seems to be me as you are being the aggressive one here. The club asks - not demands - very little from its members and yet you repeatedly argue that even this light burden is terrifically onerous.

    FYI, if you were to regularly volunteer to lead a club run that would be an enormous help.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    AnotherTom wrote:
    "other than race marshalling and the aforementioned management and organisation of the club runs, what is it that you want me to get involved in?"

    I don't know what side of the bed you got up from this morning, but it seems to be me as you are being the aggressive one here. The club asks - not demands - very little from its members and yet you repeatedly argue that even this light burden is terrifically onerous.

    FYI, if you were to regularly volunteer to lead a club run that would be an enormous help.

    I was certainly not the 1st person to get aggressive in this thread! The lot of you appear to have enormous chips on your shoulders - just take a scan back through the comments! Perhaps I'm reading what you've been saying wrongly but it certainly came across as harsh.

    As I have already said, I have run and managed the Sat fast ride in the past. I haven't volunteered to do it regular because quite frankly, it realy does not need much management. It usually consists of perhaps 10 riders, all of whom are usually pretty experienced and know the route well.
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  • zanes
    zanes Posts: 563
    Wow! :shock:

    I have no problem with helping out (as I do every week for about 3 hours at my sculling club) but some of the comments from (I assume) club committee members on here sums up why I don't think about joining cycling clubs.

    IMHO, YMMV, Not-all-clubs-are-the-same, etc.
  • hells
    hells Posts: 175
    I had been considering joining DP but attitudes on here are putting me off although the 2x I have ridden with them they have appeared friendly. I would be happy to occassionally help out instead of ride and lead/manage the slow and maybe middle speed groups as I have your saturday ride route programmed into my garmin, Im a trainee paramedic so could possibly be able to provide medical aid at your events. However I work 8/10 weekends and have managed 2x rides with DP in a year and a half due to work and Ta commitments, I may be given a 3 month 'ghosting' giving me 50% of weekends off for that period which is why I have considered joining you properly. I have done 2x races in the past but they were too high level for me but I do have interest in trying out racing with you guys, unfortunately it appears that the races are on a tuesday and I am usually working on tuesday (12-14 hr shifts) I usually get weds and thursday off but I don't think you guys have events/rides on these days . After the 3 month ghosting it would be back to working 8/10 weekends. This means I would be unable to marshall events for reasons beyond my control. Does this mean I would not be welcome in your club?
    Scott Addict R2 2010
    Trek 1.7 compact 2009
    Tank race elite 2007
    Marin Alpine trail 2007
    Specalized Langster 2010
    Kona Jake the Snake
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    hells wrote:
    I had been considering joining DP but attitudes on here are putting me off although the 2x I have ridden with them they have appeared friendly. I would be happy to occassionally help out instead of ride and lead/manage the slow and maybe middle speed groups as I have your saturday ride route programmed into my garmin, Im a trainee paramedic so could possibly be able to provide medical aid at your events. However I work 8/10 weekends and have managed 2x rides with DP in a year and a half due to work and Ta commitments, I may be given a 3 month 'ghosting' giving me 50% of weekends off for that period which is why I have considered joining you properly. I have done 2x races in the past but they were too high level for me but I do have interest in trying out racing with you guys, unfortunately it appears that the races are on a tuesday and I am usually working on tuesday (12-14 hr shifts) I usually get weds and thursday off but I don't think you guys have events/rides on these days . After the 3 month ghosting it would be back to working 8/10 weekends. This means I would be unable to marshall events for reasons beyond my control. Does this mean I would not be welcome in your club?

    It is a very, very welcoming club. I have never experienced attitudes like these in person. You should definitely come along. Anyway, I'm stepping away from this, it's all getting a bit too close to home now.... See you all out on the roads sometime.
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  • seward4or5
    seward4or5 Posts: 79
    Headhuuter has done his best to make the prospective member of the club feel welcome - good on him.
    The rest of you have no doubt done nothing but put the OP off ever joining DP, or possibly any club. Shame on you!
  • AnotherTom
    AnotherTom Posts: 4
    "Headhuuter has done his best to make the prospective member of the club feel welcome - good on him. The rest of you have no doubt done nothing but put the OP off ever joining DP, or possibly any club. Shame on you!"

    Shame on us? Apart from one sarcastic comment all you've seen is people gently try to educate people about how voluntary organisations work. Would it worth joining a club that had no volunteers? But yes, this is something of a raw nerve at the moment!
  • seward4or5
    seward4or5 Posts: 79
    OK, I got a little carried away. Apologies.

    I completely agree with the need for volunteers in every club, and understand that there are not enough of them. It would seem clear that DP website encourages volunteers which is fine.

    However we are talking about people dipping their toe in the water here. A bit of gentle encouragement for them to volunteer can come later when they have joined. Not everyone is going to be a club stalwart.
  • acadaptor
    acadaptor Posts: 1
    http://www.dulwichparagon.cc/

    Read the page 'What we Do' under About Us/Contact us.

    It says it all really. DP are a club with a history in racing, not organising social rides.

    Despite this, DP has extended it's arms to encourage those new to the sport (yes sport) to come along and there is never forcing of joining the club prior to trying a club ride.

    If you never race, no problem, if you never marshall a race, no problem. If you never work the sign-sheets at a race, no problem. There is more to this club than racing and club rides though, too many to mention/bore people with here but all of which take peoples time, effort and dedication. The problem stems from the hundreds of members who pay their paltry membership fee, buy the kit and get hacked off at the slightest whiff of being asked to give something back to a club whose very foundation is built on the charity of few.

    From a volunteering side, I would love to see Mark Wareham, Jason Campbell or any of the other 'members' putting out the direction signs for the Ride of the falling leaves, or perhaps offering to become secretary, or deal with the club kit or even, shock horror working on the administrative side of a cycling club (which each and every member benefits from, even non-racers, in the event of a serious accident on the Saturday ride for instance).

    I'm really disappointed that someone is so openly flouting one of the key rules to joining the club. No one is going to force anyone to do anything at DP, but by virtue of the fact that we ask anyone joining to do just a little helping out, perhaps DP isn't the right club for those who don't have time or can't be bothered to help out. There are a lot of members who would be rather happy to get rid of the flotsam at the club but tend not to say anything for the good of cycling.

    To the original question, by all means come along try the rides and enjoy cycling with DP. But don't join if you don't have time to help, its part of the club rules and part of the signing up process.

    If like you say your personal circumstances prevent this, then join another club, enjoy cycling and be thankful you're not forced to wave a flag like Headhuunter.
  • Just read acadaptors message and feel a bit put out you had to go into my profile and name me in the forum - Jason Campbell. However saying that you are right about volunteering and helping the club.

    My comment about marshaling at races if you race is probably inaccurate and people should volunteer if they join the club. I only joined just before the Ride of the Falling Leaves and offered to help out, getting told there were enough volunteers so I could ride, however having recently raced, I did volunteer and marshaled when Dulwich Paragon recently hosted the first round of the Crystal Palace Crits.

    However having read the posts as well as the ones on the club's forum I realize that even if I didn't race I should still have signed up to volunteer to help.

    Its volunteers that keep the club running and give up there time. Acadapter - i'll be volunteering more often now and helping the club grow from strength to strength. Sorry for my part in this topic, I should have thought before I typed.

    Jason Campbell
  • NWLondoner
    NWLondoner Posts: 2,047
    Dear ALL

    Not too sure how to go about replying to all this but here goes.

    While I can FULLY understand many of your comments was there surely the need for so much venom and aggressive comments?


    If this was such a raw nerve then why not just send a PM or email to state that you would prefer for me NOT to come along? That would have been the end of that and none of this rage would have been going around.

    For the record the reason why I was asking the question was not as some others had labeled or inferred as "lazy arse" but because I have certain health reasons for not being able to commit. I do not know from one day to the next as to whether I can go ahead with a planned event. Sometimes my planned day can go pear shaped rapidly on the actual morning. My god I have lost enough money on cancelled flights/holidays/sportives/events due to this.

    I was hoping that getting into a regular routine of group rides would maybe help with part of this and in the long term I could possibly help out in some form. However this is not to be now.


    Obviously you want a cast iron guarantee and that is fine with me.

    I wish your club all the best and future success and on the positive side haggisinlondon has publicly committed himself to help out more.


    Hopefully this can bring this thread to a close
  • Hanky2010
    Hanky2010 Posts: 1
    I wouldn't like any potential members to be put off joining DP because of the overreaction by some DP'ers to this thread. The comments on the DP forum are a bit disappointing to say the least. My experience of DP has been positive particularly on the Saturday rides. All abilities are catered for and most members who attend are helpful and friendly. The racers who I suppose have been most upset by someone wanting to join but unable to help out on their race days shouldn't worry too much about one person who can't help them. It's a big club and no races are going to stop due to one person. We don't know the OP's situation - it could be anything from being a carer, a single parent, to studying...whatever makes someone's spare time limited. To castigate someone like they have is unnecessary. Just my 2 cents. Peace.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Hanky2010 wrote:
    I wouldn't like any potential members to be put off joining DP because of the overreaction by some DP'ers to this thread. The comments on the DP forum are a bit disappointing to say the least. My experience of DP has been positive particularly on the Saturday rides. All abilities are catered for and most members who attend are helpful and friendly. The racers who I suppose have been most upset by someone wanting to join but unable to help out on their race days shouldn't worry too much about one person who can't help them. It's a big club and no races are going to stop due to one person. We don't know the OP's situation - it could be anything from being a carer, a single parent, to studying...whatever makes someone's spare time limited. To castigate someone like they have is unnecessary. Just my 2 cents. Peace.

    I'll second that. I've always found the weekend rides at DP to be very friendly affairs, full of people (members and non-members) that are only too happy to help out newcomers etc. Not really sure where all the angst has come from.
  • Being one of the hard-pressed organisers struggling for volunteers I thought I would chip in I don't think it is reasonable to ask those not racing to wave flags at events in which they have no interest - I'm sure there are plenty of other ways they can help out the club. However, I would expect those competing regularly to help out at at least one race per year.
  • BigAlS2
    BigAlS2 Posts: 1
    Don't really understand where all this aggression has come from.

    I joined DP in Nov of last year, specifically because they were all so friendly and inclusive. At the time my abilities were limited but I enjoyed going out on club rides and have lost 3.5 stone and now dance up hills (well wobble, but at least I enjoy it).

    I have only been asked to help marshall one event that sadly I can't do as i am away visiting the in laws. I have promised to help out at the next one.

    However, helping out the club isn't neccessarily marshalling races, althought we do need people to do this. You could help lead a section on the Saturday club ride, come to our film evening or many other things to help.

    I'm sorry if you've been put off our club by some of the vitriolic responses on here, I would urge you to try again. Come on one more club ride and stop and chat to those of us who are in our club kit and willing to lead out the ride. I hope you will find us all very welcoming and decide to continue to ride with us and help out in any way that you can.