Greenwich Park speed limit reduced from 30 to 20mph

navt

Anyone else notice the new speed limit signs are up?

According to this

http://www.friendsofgreenwichpark.org.u ... ey=News#32

it came into effect last week.

AndyManc

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign.

.

markshaw77

Yeah - some temporary signs went up last week, but as far as I can see no-one is taking a blind bit of notice of them!!

I haven't yet seen any signs of enforcement but after the recent PCSO infestation targeting cyclist on non-cycle paths I am sure it won't be long!!!

asprilla

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

fenboy369

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

Do they have speed guns or are they just having a guess? With no speedo who do you know how fast you are going?

kelsen

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

asprilla

No idea, I've never been fined, it's just what I've read elsewhere.

navt

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

They have speed guns. I have seen cyclist being done for speeding. I think the burden is on the park user to adhere to the regulation, i.e. get a computer.

kelsen

navt wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

They have speed guns. I have seen cyclist being done for speeding. I think the burden is on the park user to adhere to the regulation, i.e. get a computer.

There's no easy way of telling if your computer is calibrated correctly though? I suppose then they'll say the onus is on you to make sure it is accurate. Either way, you're fcuked I guess!

Porgy

I stopped riding through that park years ago - combination of traffic and over zealous policing.

shame, really.

Stuey01

Hasn't it always been 20mph? Seriously I've been riding there for about a year and it has always been 20mph I thought. Painted on the road and on temporary folding signs that say something along the lines of "20mph limit applies to you too, naughty cyclist!"

Still I was belting along at 30mph on sunday and some 'erbert still felt the need to go screaming past me in his beemer. He soon got on the brakes when he saw the parks police round the next corner though :P

I am aware that I am as in the wrong as beemer man in this case, btw.

deptfordmarmoset

No Stuey, the speed change is recent. It's a classic case of cyclists paying for the indiscretions of motorists: they couldn't be trusted to drive safely so they've restricted the speed - and cyclists end up caught up in the traffic calming measure. It's the same at many red lights - they're not there because of bikes, they're there because of motorised traffic, but bikes get held up in the solution.

Porgy

Stuey01 wrote:

Hasn't it always been 20mph? Seriously I've been riding there for about a year and it has always been 20mph I thought. Painted on the road and on temporary folding signs that say something along the lines of "20mph limit applies to you too, naughty cyclist!"

Something like that - yeah, probably "30mph limit applies to you too, naughty cyclist!" :P

Mikelyons

New 20 signs have gone up in Bushy park as well .
This is a reduction from the previous 30.

My initial observations are that at least some people are observing the limits.

of course the presence of a police car at the Teddington gate helps comlpliance.

About time too as before the change, there was the anomaly of the limit inside the park being greater than outside it (at least Teddington side)

Mike

zerostar

Saw some cops in Greenwich park doing radar speed traps at the end of last week. They were sat on the main drag from the blackheath entrance towards the top of the hill.
I think I can restrain myself to 20 there. Coming down the hill on the other hand will be irritating..

deptfordmarmoset

zerostar wrote:

Saw some cops in Greenwich park doing radar speed traps at the end of last week. They were sat on the main drag from the blackheath entrance towards the top of the hill.
I think I can restrain myself to 20 there. Coming down the hill on the other hand will be irritating..

That's where the police are based, on the left when you're travelling from Blackheath. They can just walk out of the office with a speed gun. Fair enough if they enforce it there. And fair enough if they trap cyclists going up the hill at over 20mph.

fnegroni

Everyone would agree a bike at 30mph is nowhere near as dagerous as a ton and half of metal at 20mph in a park full of pedestrians.

amnezia

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

BR 1979

fnegroni wrote:

Everyone would agree a bike at 30mph is nowhere near as dagerous as a ton and half of metal at 20mph in a park full of pedestrians.

True, but neither are ideal, in my opinion. You could do some seriious damage belting into someone on a bike at 30mph, irrespective of how fast any cars are or should be travelling.

Porgy

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Bike speedos are inherently inaccurate though depending on entering the correct wheel diameter which changes with tyre pressure anyway, and they have to be bought as extra - there's no legal requirement to have one.

So there is a double standard at work - I've made my choice; i've stopped riding in the park; which as i said before, is a shame. But never mind.

spen666

fenboy369 wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

Do they have speed guns or are they just having a guess? With no speedo who do you know how fast you are going?

That is your problem. In a similar way, a motorist can't get away with speeding by claiming his speedometer didn't work.
The motorist would be committing a construction & use offence as well. The key being as well.

Speeding is an offence of strict liability - it does not require an intention to commit the offence, simply to be driving over the speed limit


Does the regulation apply in the park? I do not know the precise wording of the bylaws there.

snailracer

BR 1979 wrote:

fnegroni wrote:

Everyone would agree a bike at 30mph is nowhere near as dagerous as a ton and half of metal at 20mph in a park full of pedestrians.

True, but neither are ideal, in my opinion. You could do some seriious damage belting into someone on a bike at 30mph, irrespective of how fast any cars are or should be travelling.

It could be argued that a car can brake/swerve considerably faster than a bike, at any speed, and avoid a collision in the first place.

spen666

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

It may be valid in a theoretical sense, but it is 100% irrelevant in context of the law.

The offence is "exceeding the speed limit", and not "KNOWINGLY exceeding the speed limit"

spen666

Porgy wrote:

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Bike speedos are inherently inaccurate though depending on entering the correct wheel diameter which changes with tyre pressure anyway, and they have to be bought as extra - there's no legal requirement to have one.

So there is a double standard at work - I've made my choice; i've stopped riding in the park; which as i said before, is a shame. But never mind.

Double standard? The only double standard seems to be from cyclists who think the law does/should not apply to them.

Law seemingly applies equally to cyclists and motorists. I can't see a double standard in the law here

Eau Rouge

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Having a working speedo is a legal requirment in a car, it's not on a bike.
I wonder if anyone has actually challenged the legality of the bike limits in a court, I'd be inclined to think they could be illegal.

spen666

Eau Rouge wrote:

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Having a working speedo is a legal requirment in a car, it's not on a bike.
I wonder if anyone has actually challenged the legality of the bike limits in a court, I'd be inclined to think they could be illegal.

I'd guarantee you'd lose if you made such a stupid challenge and end up paying £000s in legal costs for your effort.


As I have said before a) Speeding is an offence of strict liability- it requires no knowledge or intent. So having a sppeedometer is irrelevant

b) If a motorist did not have a working speedometer, that is a different issue to speeding and would be dealt with under the construction and use legislation as well as the speeding offence

It is your choice to ride your bike in an area with a speed limit without you having a speed measurement device. Your failure to act sensibly cannot found a defence

OldSkoolKona

Mikelyons wrote:

New 20 signs have gone up in Bushy park as well .
This is a reduction from the previous 30.

My initial observations are that at least some people are observing the limits.

of course the presence of a police car at the Teddington gate helps comlpliance.

About time too as before the change, there was the anomaly of the limit inside the park being greater than outside it (at least Teddington side)

Mike

+1

Iit makes these parks a lot safer for cyclists and a much more pleasant place to go. What they really need to do is deal with through traffic in all of the parks, too many people use them as rat runs.

Porgy

spen666 wrote:

Porgy wrote:

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Bike speedos are inherently inaccurate though depending on entering the correct wheel diameter which changes with tyre pressure anyway, and they have to be bought as extra - there's no legal requirement to have one.

So there is a double standard at work - I've made my choice; i've stopped riding in the park; which as i said before, is a shame. But never mind.

Double standard? The only double standard seems to be from cyclists who think the law does/should not apply to them.

Law seemingly applies equally to cyclists and motorists. I can't see a double standard in the law here

It's like the law that stops people sleeping in shop doorways. It applies equally to poor and rich. :roll:

Porgy

spen666 wrote:

Eau Rouge wrote:

amnezia wrote:

kelsen wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

I assume this applies to vehicles that are (a) motorised and (b) have a method to measure speed.

I support the countrywide '20 is plenty' campaign..

Probably not. The 20 limit in Richmond Park also applies to bicycles and the park rozzers do ticket for speeding.

If you get fined, how valid is the argument that you can't tell how fast you're going without a calibrated speedometer on your bicycle?

About as valid as telling them your car speedo doesn't work

Having a working speedo is a legal requirment in a car, it's not on a bike.
I wonder if anyone has actually challenged the legality of the bike limits in a court, I'd be inclined to think they could be illegal.

I'd guarantee you'd lose if you made such a stupid challenge and end up paying £000s in legal costs for your effort.


As I have said before a) Speeding is an offence of strict liability- it requires no knowledge or intent. So having a sppeedometer is irrelevant

b) If a motorist did not have a working speedometer, that is a different issue to speeding and would be dealt with under the construction and use legislation as well as the speeding offence

It is your choice to ride your bike in an area with a speed limit without you having a speed measurement device. Your failure to act sensibly cannot found a defence

the problem with you Spen is you defend the law as if it's some sort of law of nature that cannot be wrong.

Other - normal people - like to debate the rights and wrongs of legislation as well as all the other issues.

Legislation can be changed you know - and there's nothing wrong with exploring the issues as we are here - you do not have to wade in every time to tell us what the law says and what it does not and turn the whole thread into a pointless bun-fight.

Why not try a post that summarises the legal position and then leave it there. I sometimes get the feeling that you just like starting arguments.

Eau Rouge

spen666 wrote:

I'd guarantee you'd lose if you made such a stupid challenge and end up paying £000s in legal costs for your effort.

I'm pretty sure the heads of the law departments of the main Irish Universities take turns challenging the constitutional status of dodgy legislation in the Irish Supreme Court. I hope they do, it seems such a good idea.

Anyway, we know speed limits in general don't apply to bikes, the law makes it clear they only apply to motorised vehicles. There would have to be something out of the ordinary about these new limits in the park to have them apply to bikes then, they can't just be put in place like a usual speed limit. If they were done under the general "speed limit" legislation they wouldn't apply to bikes and hence fining cyclists could be illegal.
So, thats to special about the park then?

Porgy

Eau Rouge wrote:

spen666 wrote:

I'd guarantee you'd lose if you made such a stupid challenge and end up paying £000s in legal costs for your effort.

I'm pretty sure the heads of the law departments of the main Irish Universities take turns challenging the constitutional status of dodgy legislation in the Irish Supreme Court. I hope they do, it seems such a good idea.

Anyway, we know speed limits in general don't apply to bikes, the law makes it clear they only apply to motorised vehicles. There would have to be something out of the ordinary about these new limits in the park to have them apply to bikes then, they can't just be put in place like a usual speed limit. If they were done under the general "speed limit" legislation they wouldn't apply to bikes and hence fining cyclists could be illegal.
So, thats to special about the park then?

It's a Royal Park.